Reef Discussion

[Jarryd]

Red sea have a variety of additives, Reef Colors A B C & D, Reef Energy A & B, and Reef Foundation A B & C also ABC+

I know a few people are using the Reef Foundation range but is anyone using the Reef Energy or Reef Colors? Or have people made assumptions or perhaps views one the above mentioned additives and don't want to use them?

Do you see results?

 

[MTG]

i use them all except the reef energy. they are all just basic elements found in natural salt water. if you do regular water changes this will be more then enough. i dont notice a difference when i do and dont use them, the only necessary ones is the a , b and c. what is calcium,alk, and magnesium. those elements can also be kept under control with consistent water changes.

 

[Jarryd]

Hey Matt, i'm assuming you have the red sea reef color pro test kit? Or something that tests iodine iron and potassium?

 

[MavG]

im not disputing anyone here, but i hear a lot of people saying regular water changes will be enough to replace minor and trace elements needed for colour.

I would like to know
1. where this information came from and who validated the research
2. if it is true and there is valid research suporting this claim then how much % water change is needed AND
3. if there is a % water change indicated is there a set ratio defining the stocking density of photosynthetic organisms i.e. corals to the amount of water that needs to be changed, because obviously every tank is going to be different and the amount of corals and organisms needing these trace elements is going to change. Therefore the more corals using these elements, the higher the amount in % of water that needs to be changed

G

 

[mscott]

hey mav perhaps also add
4) What water needs too be used to add these elements. (e.g. nsw, asw, ro/di)

 

[MavG]

hm,mmm, well RODI, would be out, unless of course we are talking about minimizeing Phoisphate and nitrate input from source water, which is a whole other story.

Good quality NSW will do the trick, but depending on who collects it, how it is collected, how it is treated, where it is collected can all influence the make-up of Natural salt water.

A good quality Artificial Salt mix, puhblishing the minor and trace elements needed in biological processes is, in my opinion, the best way to go, but how much water needs to be changed, on what sort of frequency, is the question here.

In the end it doesnt really matter as long as the water you are using, wheather natural or artifical, as long as it is good quality, you will get good results, BUT, on the other hand, it does not matter how good your water is, if you are not exchangeing enough water on a frequent enough basis to replace the elements needed, then your corals are not going to be the colour, and grow as fast as what they could be.

Again, what is the rule, ratio, frequency etc of water that needs to be exchanged to replensih these elements, and how fast after the are added do they deplete, or oxidize?

In the end, mnost supplements that have trace elements, minor elements etc, are better added on a daily basis, as some oxidize very quickly, some smaller amounts added on a more frequent basis is more beneifical, if Zeovit systems are not a perfect advocate to use as an example here i dont know what is.

G

 

[MTG]

(i think the answers were more pointed at the OP's tank then talking about the products in general, i didn't make that very clear)

zeovit systems and sps dedicated systems will need more additives then any basic marine tank. the reason why everyone is recommending not dosing all these elements is because to someone new to reefing they will not always understand the impact caused from adding certain elements. the best example of this is No3Po4, (not a trace element i know) no3po4 is a carbon based food source used to feed bacteria it works well at keeping nitrates and phosphates under control. what alot of people dont know is that if you overdose this product (what isnt hard to do) you will have some serious problems on your hands. i have tallked to a few people that have crashed their system using this product inappropriately yet there is not big warning sticker on the bottle stating that it will have devastating effects when overdosed.

adding chemicals you cant test for is never a good idea. i know that if i add to much potasium to my water i get colouration loss. in saying this i have backed off using all these products a few months ago and i have noticed Zero ill effects from when i stoped dosing them (i still dose alk calc and mag) (in a lps tank)

currently i do a 20L water change weekly with salt mixed from RO water and red sea coral pro salt. this is enough to keep my corals growing and glowing. personaly i dont see the point in waisting my money for little to no gain.

in saying that zeovit is a whole different system type as zeo tanks are deprived of all elements they need to consistently have the elements added for the corals to stay healthy.


Most those minor elements used in the red sea products have been confirmed to help coral coloration i have to find the artical tho.

 

[mscott]

Well when i add the reef colours C&D which are the trace elements i usualy find my corals alot happier, more extended and much richer in colour the next day, than when i dont add it.

 

[MTG]

Well when i add the reef colours C&D which are the trace elements i usualy find my corals alot happier, more extended and much richer in colour the next day, than when i dont add it.

that's an interesting observation. i don't see any change unless its coral food. every system will be different tho. your levels may be depleted

 

[mscott]

Mainly only see it on my purple morphs, also a little in the frogspawn. The morphs used to me more of a blue than a purple, but now their a realy rich deep blue. And the pink frogspawn gos from a pale/semitransparent pink into a much stronger nicer pink.

 

[MTG]

how quickly do you see this colour change?

 

[MavG]

I agree with the NO3PO4X, people should know what they are getting into before diving into using a new form of nutrient reduction, or anything for that matter.

I get what you mean by not adding anything you cant test for, but having said this there are many elements we know corals need that dont get tested for, hell, most people who add strontium and iodide dont test for them, although they can if they need.

Taking this to the next level, and i knwo its a bit extreme, but you cant test for everything in an atrificial salt mix, however, it emulates sea water ( or should) and we know that those elements aside from the ones we can test for, are necessary, otherwise they wouldnt be in the mix in the first place, and salt mixes would simply be comprised of calcium, magnesium, carbonates, sodium, chloride, and a few other bits and peices such as strontium and iodide.

Supplements with these "trace" elements in them, as long as they are a reputable brand, should not result in overdose, as long as they are used properly, and in the right circumstance.

After all people dose Zeovit coral snow, bacterial products etc and you cant test for these, but you can see the results.

blatantly dosing without knowing what you are dosing and why is one thing, but knowing how these elements interact with your animals, why you need them, in what amounts, and when and how to use them is another. Whether you can test for them or not

 

[mscott]

Well I put it in late arvo, say an hour or so before lights off, then I turn the lights on in the morning, once they open up fully you can tell the difference

 

[192k]

Here is a very interesting article about seawater and it's composition.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php#9

It shows the many elements that make up seawater.

I have been told from the start not to add something you cannot measure.

The chart shows the complexity and vast number of elements that make up seawater.

It explains about minor and major trace elements :)

EDIT - I guess the point of my rambling was to say that no 3 bottles can contain all the trace elements that are needed in out tanks.
They can help, but water changes are the best option along with Cal, Alk and Mag respectively ;)

 

[MavG]

thanks for the Link.

I have veiwed these kinds of links many times and yes, seawater is complex.

So back to original question:

I would like to know
1. where this information came from and who validated the research
2. if it is true and there is valid research suporting this claim then how much % water change is needed AND
3. if there is a % water change indicated is there a set ratio defining the stocking density of photosynthetic organisms i.e. corals to the amount of water that needs to be changed, because obviously every tank is going to be different and the amount of corals and organisms needing these trace elements is going to change. Therefore the more corals using these elements, the higher the amount in % of water that needs to be changed

Im not trying to create an argument here, just a construction conversation, and looking at this logically.

 

[192k]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

Randy is an alchemist and a world renown reefer.

It explains about water changes and there effects including elements that deplete.

 

[MavG]

yes i see that explains about the main elements, and exports nutrient etc, but not trace elements, my question was directed towards trace elements.

 

[malau]

O/T Personally I would prefer have each trace element in separate bottle not e.g. 3 in one as I believe that different corals take different level of different trace element. For e.g. 3 in 1 trace element before goes to the water the amount of each may be balance / same as NSW however once go to the tank, it may not balanced and have to does separately .. thats what I think.. not sure if it is correct tho