Reef Discussion

MagicJ · Jan 24, 2016

The Banggai Cardinalfish (Pterapogon kauderni) will become the first saltwater aquarium fish to be listed under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) according to the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS). The final rule was published in the Federal Register January 20, 2016 and will go into effect February 19, 2016. Because the Banggai Cardinalfish will be listed as “threatened” and not “endangered” no immediate changes will occur in terms of trade or possession.

The full article can be found here.

Personally, I don't know why we don't just ban the wild collection of Banggai's as I'm sure the Australian requirements could be readily met from captive bred sources.

ezza · Jan 24, 2016

MagicJ said:
The full article can be found here.

Personally, I don't know why we don't just ban the wild collection of Banggai's as I'm sure the Australian requirements could be readily met from captive bred sources.

Woooooow. Thankyou for posting that! It's funny, the discussion has been going for years- as it says in the article. I'm surprised CITES hasn't listed them already.

It is really disturbing to see how we as collectors, contribute to the destruction of the creatures we love so much. It makes me question whether I really have morals. I never wanted to collect wild caught fish or corals... But I do. Should we feel guilt?

Buddy · Jan 25, 2016

Makes sense to ban collection as they are picky eaters anyway. I am guessing tank bred ones are far easier to sustain on dry foods?

IJG3145 · Jan 25, 2016

MagicJ said:
The full article can be found here.

Personally, I don't know why we don't just ban the wild collection of Banggai's as I'm sure the Australian requirements could be readily met from captive bred sources.

Yep, we need to turn more to aquaculture, although you have to have a wide gene pool.

Savage Henry · Jan 25, 2016

I was actually looking through MagicJ's Banggai Cardinal Breeding Journal last night thinking that maybe I should put my name down for a few if any are for sale. This article of course encourages me to do this.

Coralfarmer · Jan 25, 2016

I believe once a species is listed as endangered you are not allowed to trade in them what so ever this includes captive bred specimans

Savage Henry · Jan 25, 2016

Really? Not doubting you, but that sounds counter intuitive.

I always wondered about those Florida Rics and whether it's safe to buy them even though there are not allowed to be imported.

Coralfarmer · Jan 25, 2016

Savage Henry said:
Really? Not doubting you, but that sounds counter intuitive.

I always wondered about those Florida Rics and whether it's safe to buy them even though there are not allowed to be imported.

There was a thread about it on rc some time ago in regards to clownfish being listed as endangered.... As with alot of ornamental marine organisms the laws are totally ridiculous

ezza · Jan 25, 2016

Savage Henry said:
Really? Not doubting you, but that sounds counter intuitive.

I always wondered about those Florida Rics and whether it's safe to buy them even though there are not allowed to be imported.

it says so in the article...

At some point in the future, however, NMFS may initiate a rulemaking process under section 4(d) of the ESA. Those so-called 4(d) rules could limit or end the trade in Banggai Cardinalfish, including aquacultured fish. In a press release immediately following announcement of the ruling, a spokesperson for WildEarth Guardians, the group that had petitioned for the listing, called for a ban on Banggai Cardinalfish in the US aquarium trade:

“The Service should quickly finalize regulations prohibiting removal of these beautiful fish from the wild,” said Taylor Jones. “Endangered Species Act protection will mean much less for these fish if it does not address the main threat: collection from the wild for the aquarium trade.”

MagicJ · Jan 26, 2016

How would you identify a wild caught fish from a captive bred fish?

The answer is that you probably can't and so the only way to really protect the wild fish is to ban all sales.

Savage Henry · Jan 26, 2016

MagicJ said:
How would you identify a wild caught fish from a captive bred fish?

The answer is that you probably can't and so the only way to really protect the wild fish is to ban all sales.

That makes sense.

Maybe we need some kind of registration like when you buy those native plants that have some kind of certification.

MagicJ · Jan 26, 2016

Savage Henry said:
That makes sense.

Maybe we need some kind of registration like when you buy those native plants that have some kind of certification.

You need to attach a tag to crayfish caught in Tasmania - it might be a bit hard to do that with juvi banggai's :p

Savage Henry · Jan 26, 2016

nanochips

Coralfarmer · Jan 27, 2016

and pay $100 per fish

MagicJ · Oct 3, 2016

Further to this discussion earlier this year, there is currently a CITES meeting being held in South Africa. There has been a proposal put forward by the EU to list the Banggai in Appendix ii - as shown below the Secretariat has recommended that the proposal be adopted. The original proposal can be found at - https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/cop/17/prop/060216/E-CoP17-Prop-46.pdf

What does a listing in Appendix ii actually mean?

What does this actually mean in the case of the Banggai - I'm not really sure at this stage.

The UK trade association has opposed the listing - https://rettalbot.wordpress.com/201...poses-cites-listing-for-endangered-reef-fish/

Some articles discussing the proposed listing:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/09/wildlife-banggai-cardinalfish-trade-cites-protections/
http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016...larions-nautilus-targeted-for-cites-listings/

ReeferRob · Oct 5, 2016

The entire EU has nixed them from the list. ALL of what I order is maricultured stock. I personally wouldn't have one of them, they don't do anything for me, to each his own. I do sell quite a few of them, 2700 last year.

MagicJ · Oct 5, 2016

@ReeferRob, from my reading I understand that there has been a large scale breeding operation in the US for a few years which has been meeting the US demand.

2,700 is quite a few :rolleyes

ReeferRob · Oct 5, 2016

It's cheaper for me to order from my breeder in Bali, it's simple economics. America talks a good game when it comes to ecology, but it comes down to the Yankee greenback in the end mate. The ones bred here are damn near twice what I pay out of Bali. They ship exceedingly well too, I might lose 1 out of 200.

I have one customer that orders 80 every 3 weeks. I've often wondered if he eats the damn things. I know he resells them to dealers, but that's a shitpot full of cardinalfish. I just ran the sheet, I sell on average 52/week. I'd imagine that someone like Quality Marine or A&M does 100-200/week.

MagicJ · Oct 5, 2016

Similar to Australia, labour costs are so much lower in most of the less developed countries that labour intensive industries cannot compete.

Unfortunately, most consumers are unwilling to pay more for a captive bred fish when compared to a cheaper wild caught one - but they will pay a small fortune for a 'designer' clown :confused:.

ReeferRob · Oct 5, 2016

I don't understand the fascination with "designer" clowns. When we had our first shop back in the 90s, I was paying a whopping 12 cents for an occelaris clown, now they're 88 cents. One of those bastard "designer" clowns is $12.47-$88.53 depending on the colour. The devil will be wearing long johns before I pony up $200-$300 for a goddamn clownfish, ain't gonna happen brother!! Now I WILL buy any aberrant wild caughts I can lay my hands on. To those of us purists, they're worth their weight in gold. I understand that marine fish breeding and rearing is quite labour intensive, I breed and raise Comets, but I don't agree with what they're doing to clownfish one little bit.