Reef Discussion

[ryanr]

Hey everyone,

I've searched the forums, and couldn't find an answer, so here goes.....

Recently I've been having troubles keeping my NO3 below 2ppm and PO4 below 1.5 (Hanna), been the same for 3 weeks now!

I'm aware of MavG's blog, and nitrate limitation etc, and can dose nitrogen if it gets to that stage (I use it in my FW anyway), but while NO3 is above 0, I'm a little confused.

I'm up to 11mL per day of NO3: PO4-X on 66G (DT), and still can't get them down. I was using TLF Marine Snow, but read bad reports and stopped (PO4 injection)

My BTA is wandering all over the place, my cat and bubble are not as extended as they usually were.

I've decided to switch to NP biopellets [haven't started yet], but got the TLF Phosban 150, 500mL of Biopellets and Eheim Compact 300 to drive it. If for no other reason than not having to dose every day.

Question - how should I make the switch? Do I start the biopellet reactor and slowly ween the NO3:pO4-X back?

The vitals:
- SG 1.025 (33ppt)
- pH 8.0
- ammonia 0
- nitrite 0
- nitrate 2ppm (Red Sea Kit)
- Alk 9dKH (API) [any higher and corals suffer]
- Ca 440-480ppm (Red Sea Titration) [dosed with Red Sea A as required]
- Mg ~1300ppm (Red Sea Titration) [dosed with Red Sea C as required]
- Salt Mix - IO Reef Crystals
- Water - RO/DI for mixing and top-off


Also, does NO3: PO4-X lose potency over time?

 

[MTG]

settle down on the no3 po4 you can cause a system crash with this stuff! what is your po4 levels?

 

[ryanr]

PO4 = 1.43 on Sunday (prior to 10% water change) with Hanna Checker
NO3 = 2 with Red Sea.

I don't understand where the spike came from, but it hasn't settled in 3 weeks.

I've lost my acros that had been fine for 2 months :(

And the others aren't doing great..... thinking it's NO3 or PO4 related.

 

[MTG]

are you running rowaphos? what size tank. where do you get your water from? how many fish?

 

[ryanr]

No Rowaphos.... all vitals are in OP, but:

RO/DI water with IO Reef Crystals for Salt Mix, and top-off with RO/DI [PSI Filters, still reads 0 TDS]

250L Display tank with a 70L sump, full details are about half way down the page at: http://www.fishlore.com/aquariummagazine/may12/member-spotlight-ryanr.htm

Only live stock change has been the addition of 4 x Yellow Striped Cardinals (juvi's).

 

[Chriso]

are you running rowaphos? what size tank. where do you get your water from? how many fish?

Answer these please :)

Adding too much carbon source can have a negative effect on reduction of NO3 and PO4, I would reduce the volume of no3po4-x by 30% and see if the nutrient levels will start to come down, test every 2 days and dont change too much at once, a rapid reduction in nutrients might cause more harm than good.

Edit - Questions were answered above :cool:

 

[ryanr]

Chriso - think I ninja'd you mate :D

 

[Chriso]

Dem ninjas be sneakin

 

[ryanr]

Hehe, pesky ninja's :p

I'm trying to move away from the NO/POX, I'm thinking it's a little 'unstable' (for me).....

don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help, and love the advice, but my original question was more to do with making the transition from liquid to solid carbon dosing. For simplicity, and consistency.

I've decided to switch to NP biopellets [haven't started yet], but got the TLF Phosban 150, 500mL of Biopellets and Eheim Compact 300 to drive it. If for no other reason than not having to dose every day.

Question - how should I make the switch? Do I start the biopellet reactor and slowly ween the NO3: PO4-X back?

 

[MTG]

what im interested in is why your nitrates are so high. what fish do you have to size of tank?

 

[MTG]

the main point i would be looking at is the underlying issues to why you have these issues before you go the carbon dosing route

 

[ryanr]

I really need to do a TJ don't I ;) [rhetorical]

I've been carbon dosing since day 1 (well after the tank cycled), never had NO3 greater than 0.5, PO4 around 0.6, but figured I was nitrate limited.

Here we go.
Tank #2 – 250L (66G) Mixed Reef, 3' x 1.5' x 2'
Established: November 2011.
Substrate: Caribsea Arognite Sand
Water Source: Instant Ocean Reef Crystals mixed with RO/DI, RO/DI for top-up
Live Rock: Approx 40kg [88lbs] (probably more now)
Filtration: 72L [19G] Sump, Tunze 9011 Skimmer, Eheim Compact 2000+, 2 x Tunze 6055 Powerheads on Multicontroller, Carbon Dosing for nutrient export, Total of approx 30x Turnover
Heater: 2 x 150 Watt Eheim Jager, Temp: 27C (80F)
Lighting: Inwatter Stingray 120W LED – 50/50 White/Blue with Sunrise/Sunset
Parameters: pH ~8.2-8.4, SG 1.025 (33ppt), Alk 8-9dKH, Ca 440-480ppm, Mg 1400ppm,
Supplements: Red Sea NO3: PO4-X, Red Sea Reef Foundations A, B & C (as required). API, Red Sea and Hanna Test Kits.
Inverts: Turbo Snails, Cerith Snails, Sea Cucumber, Redline (Skunk) Cleaners, Peppermint Shrimp, Tropical Abalone
Fish: Pyjama Cardinal, Flamehawk, Coral Beauty, True Percula Clown Pair, Lawnmower Blenny, Six Line Wrasse, 4 x Yellow Stripe Cardinals
Corals: Blasto, Elegance, Green Star Polyps, Bubble, Zoas, Morphs, Bubble-tip Anemone, one hard so far.
Feeding: Hikari Mysis Shrimp, Mussels, Prawns, NLS Pellets, Reef-roids

I had acros, but they're gone now :( :( :(

What's changed?
I was feeding Marine Snow but stopped when PO4 started rising.

 

[Chriso]

Hehe, pesky ninja's :p

I'm trying to move away from the NO/POX, I'm thinking it's a little 'unstable' (for me).....

don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help, and love the advice, but my original question was more to do with making the transition from liquid to solid carbon dosing. For simplicity, and consistency.

Sorry I should have been more specific to the overall goal of what I was suggesting :rolleyes
Before throwing NP biopellets into the mix (which will take a good while to get going mind you), it is a good idea to get your nutrient levels under control, alot of users of biopellets that have crashed their tanks have done so by going thru what you're doing right now. I don't think it's the bio pellets themselves, but the poor transition phase they were put in place.

By reducing the nutrients as much as possible first, you will reduce a risk of a very big bacterial bloom which may starve all your occupants of oxygen and be a big pain to deal with. Once you have the nutrients stabilised, add some pellets, but keep your NO3PO4-x dosing the same, gradually phasing it out.

A good mod to do for the TLF is as follows:

 

[MTG]

my advice is to stop carbon dosing in general, stop dosing everything. go back to bare minimum, water changes and rowaphos/carbon. oh and alk calc and mag
wait 6 months and then tell us what the levels are.
my guess is you wont have any problems as the system stabilizes (your system sounds unstable to me)

 

[ryanr]

Thanks heaps Chriso.

small difference - I haven't started my biopellets.... thought I should ask first :D
(And I stupidly forgot to order the inserts for the reactor... DOH!)

If I should wait until I stabilise, then happy to do so....

 

[Chriso]

Another thought,
Make sure your rinsing your frozen food too, don't just throw it in the water in a frozen block! that will jack your PO4 levels. If nothing has changed, and nothing has died and is rotting somewhere in the tank, It must be your feeding regime. I would feed sparingly, like gold fish, feed them small amounts and let them eat it, then feed a little bit more.

 

[MTG]

Thanks heaps Chriso.

small difference - I haven't started my biopellets.... thought I should ask first :D
(And I stupidly forgot to order the inserts for the reactor... DOH!)

If I should wait until I stabilise, then happy to do so....

i would give this a go first. :)

 

[Meller]

The only advice I can give is about the no3po4x.... 11mls is HEAPS in your tank, I'd def be wanting to pull back on that, but wean it SLOWLY. I've heard about (and done) some spectacular crashes playing with this dragon....

 

[192k]

An Alk of 9 could cause you problems with any form of carbon dosing. Most systems try and use an Alk of around 7, or close to NSW levels.

You already stated an Alk of 9 is causing your corals to be unhappy. You can end up burning certain corals with carbon dosing.

Have a read of this to understand the relationship between Carbon, Nitrate and Phosphate. It's the Redfield Ratio

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfield_ratio

It explains that a ratio of 106:16:1 of CNP exists.

People who have used biopellets and experienced the bacterial bloom have had a nutrient problem. The excess nutrients cause the bloom.

Bacterioplankton systems need to be fed heavily for them to be effective. The bacteria can only consume what is there, nothing else.

The boipellets will not be a quick fix and should not be considered one for anybody. They do work, I would not be using them if they didn't :)

 

[ryanr]

Hi 192k, thanks for the feedback. I've read about the Redfield Ratio, and MavG's blog about it :D

And I'm not considering biopellets as a quick fix, I'm considering them as a long term, more stable regime than liquid dosing.

Just to clarify, everything is happy at Alk 9dKH, if I bump it up to 10, corals seem to be unhappy. 9dKH is where the tank sits naturally (from Reef Crystals), so I don't play with Alk anymore.

Chriso - I don't rinse food, but I do drain all fluids from it before feeding (I press the fluid out with my finger), and I do seem to be 'missing' a turbo snail. I'll have a good look around on the weekend..... A dead snail would definitely cause a spike.