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The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Conservation - What can we do?
Hello everyone,

Most of the major projects are almost complete. This means that The Reefuge Australia will soon be functioning as it was always intended to. Obviously there will be new features, changes, etc ongoing, but the core of the site is quickly coming up to an acceptable level.

Before other sites pop up (The Reefuge USA, etc), I would like to hear ideas from the community on what The Reefuge can do to help with conservation efforts. This can be anything, regardless of how big or small of a project it may be. Any little thing that we can do would be great. This can include a frag system designed to trade cultured frags, having preferred suppliers of livestock, etc.

I would like this to be solely a community project that will take place, and the technical work (if any) will be done by The Reefuge. So please feel free to let this thread grow with ideas and brainstorming.

Once a project is agreed on, we can start working on the logistics of it.

Thanks.
 

VaultBoy

Member
Jul 10, 2011
2,279
673
Gawler, S.A.
Frag trading would be a great start.

Just brainstorming as I dont know the possibility of such an idea but if we could start a group, like fair trade for coffee, where we can support sustainable collection practices and captive reproduction. Could have a little logo that suppliers can put on their website etc to show the community that they are doing their part to maintain the wild reefs and fish stocks. I have been thinking about this for a while, I think this could be great but I dont know how to make it work...
 

Dr. Schell

The Fuckin' Doc
Jul 12, 2011
1,972
1,228
Brisbane
dissemination of information related to captive propagation of corals, breeding and raising marine fish and invertebrates and the free trading of materials to aid in this process. This will reduce the presures on wild fish/invertebrate popultaitons and help to make this hobby sustainable.
 

Wrangy

Member
May 7, 2013
2,923
1,567
Research
+1^ Threads or articles on these things can help to create a sustainable practice within the hobby and a free trade between aquacultured livestock for those who wish to participate.

Trying to setup frag swaps as I know they go off in the US but we don't have many here in Aus so that would be a good place to start.

Increased advertising abilities to companies who sell aquacultured livestock, rewarding them for their efforts.

Increased exposure to those who practice sustainable collection of non-aquacultured livestock. Eg non-cyanide users, hand caught, not over-farming areas, correct treatment, etc.

Having "open" days at retailers/collectors/breeders/propagators places of business for greater insight into the work they put into trying to make this hobby more sustainable would open people's eyes.

While sometimes some of these things may result in higher price-tags trying to inform people of the benefits so that they are more likely to spend that bit extra is worth it every cent.
 

brendore

Moderator
Oct 4, 2011
1,012
374
Port Macquarie, NSW, AUS
Loving all the ideas. I like VB's idea of a 'fair trade group'. The only one I know of for marines is the Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) which I think operates out of the US or the UK. MAC gives accreditation to collection facilities who capture, handle and transport stock with the highest care possible to minimise deaths. I know a few people who'd be worth talking to about this kind of idea and perhaps we could even try to start an Australian Industry Standard of capturing, handling and transportation of livestock, remember here that unison is a powerful force!
 

deL

Member
Mar 3, 2013
115
54
Canberra, ACT
My local aquarium club CDAS has implemented "breeder points" for people who breed fish. While nothing concrete has been decided as to what the points are used for, you recieve a lot more breeding a rare or endangered fish and minimal points (though still some) for things like guppies. You can only get points for the same species once unless an exception is made.

Something similar but "Fragging Points" could be implemented here and the reward could include Reefuge Gold OR even gift vouchers for organisations known to practice sustainable reef collection and ethical livestock sale.
 

Dmitroid

Member
May 5, 2013
13
6
South Yarra
Definitely create a DBTC system for Australian Reefers. I would have to say that I have been very excited about the prospect of diving head first into SPS but I would be much more confident if I could back up my coral by spreading frags around to grow in other tanks and get a frag back, if for whatever god forsaken reason my tank may crash! :P
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
My 2c

There are plenty of frag programs running, not to belittle them as they do foster growing out of your own corals rather than buying large wild collect colonies..... But ;)

Establishing a program dealing in corals of known lineage known to grow and prosper in captivity would differentiate the Reefuge's program from the others. It would be a true conservation approach as the corals would only need have been removed from the wild once :D .

Rather than a simple frag program where many of the corals were derived from WC stock.

Pete
 

chimaera

enjoy the little things
May 13, 2012
5,473
2,295
Sandringham
My 2c

There are plenty of frag programs running, not to belittle them as they do foster growing out of your own corals rather than buying large wild collect colonies..... But ;)

Establishing a program dealing in corals of known lineage known to grow and prosper in captivity would differentiate the Reefuge's program from the others. It would be a true conservation approach as the corals would only need have been removed from the wild once :D .

Rather than a simple frag program where many of the corals were derived from WC stock.

Pete
While that sounds great, I think in practice it would make the program too hard for many to participate in. What would be better is to ensure frags are tracked and lineage recorded, so that at least if a frag comes from WC stock in its next iteration could be 'gen'2, gen3, gen4 etc.

Or there are genX corals in the program that are actively pushed, but the program is not limited to them.

Maybe it would work ... *shrug*
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Hello everyone,

Currently, the idea running through my head is a mixture of @Oceanarium's idea and the old idea of the coral trading program.

I am inclined to kick it off with a few users who have a coral they can cut into at least 3 pieces. The system will use frag cells, and each cell will be tracked (who has it, who will have it, etc). However, each frag cell will have the name of the coral, and the name of the original fragger on it, along with the ID number. We can then track it and see how far the coral has spread. Here is an example

#572a
chimaera
Star Polyp

#572b
chimaera
Star Polyp

#572c
chimaera
Star Polyp

The example shows 3 frag cells. The frags are from the same original coral. @chimaera can then send the coral frags to three other users. The users grow, and send again, etc.

This will all be documented (easily) via the Frag Cell system. It will list all members who have ever received these frag cells (these particular cells will be dedicated to that particular "mother" coral). It will, in months and months, show exactly how many users now have frags of it in their tanks.

This is just a very rough idea floating around, but that is the idea currently in my head.

If we can get 20 or so different species of coral, there will be around 60 cells being traded. All feedback, ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.
 

VaultBoy

Member
Jul 10, 2011
2,279
673
Gawler, S.A.
Loving all the ideas. I like VB's idea of a 'fair trade group'. The only one I know of for marines is the Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) which I think operates out of the US or the UK. MAC gives accreditation to collection facilities who capture, handle and transport stock with the highest care possible to minimise deaths. I know a few people who'd be worth talking to about this kind of idea and perhaps we could even try to start an Australian Industry Standard of capturing, handling and transportation of livestock, remember here that unison is a powerful force!

I wouldnt even know where to start with this idea but have thought about it a few times. I would really like to see this kick off and would love to help anyone who wanted to start something happening.

My 2c

There are plenty of frag programs running, not to belittle them as they do foster growing out of your own corals rather than buying large wild collect colonies..... But ;)

Establishing a program dealing in corals of known lineage known to grow and prosper in captivity would differentiate the Reefuge's program from the others. It would be a true conservation approach as the corals would only need have been removed from the wild once :D .

Rather than a simple frag program where many of the corals were derived from WC stock.

Pete

A great idea but I think that it would be tricky as @chimaera said. I think it would be better to promote and encourage the trading of tank raised/propogated frags as well as individual specimens shown to thrive in captive conditions rather than restricting the program to these species. If there was a reward system or similar it could be used to really promote the trading of home grown frags as opposed to buying a large wild captured colony and chopping it to pieces.

Jack.
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
While that sounds great, I think in practice it would make the program too hard for many to participate in. What would be better is to ensure frags are tracked and lineage recorded, so that at least if a frag comes from WC stock in its next iteration could be 'gen'2, gen3, gen4 etc.

Or there are genX corals in the program that are actively pushed, but the program is not limited to them.

Maybe it would work ... *shrug*
I see where your coming at @chimaera but perhaps there are ways to make the extra difficulty to be more worth the effort. A lot if not all frag programs rely on generosity and free donations of frags, sure you get free frags in return but the good stuff always seems to be traded out side these programs.

What if a suggest (devils advocate here :p ) a price accompanies the frag ? So instead of the green star polyps its a rainbow ric for $300 or a 'dallas' acro for $15 ?? Perhaps the quality of the frags being traded might make the extra effort worth it and make the program successful?



@The Reefuge that idea sounds very much like the way the chaeto is being traded seemingly successfully ?
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
@The Reefuge that idea sounds very much like the way the chaeto is being traded seemingly successfully ?
Hello @Oceanarium,

Yes, it is a similar concept. Though, there are some major points missing, such as if the coral frags are going to be free for users trading within the system (receiver pays postage only), or if the receiver will need to buy the frag and each cell has a price.

So as an example

Frag Cell #123a
"x" coral
$20
+ $10 postage
Total: $30

That way Frag Cell #123a will always have the same coral species and a set purchase price of $30 (inc shipping).

OR

Frag Cell #123a
"x" coral
$10 postage

Then users trade that way. Either way it will be aquacultured frags being traded. One thing is for sure, and that is you will need to purchase a once-off fee to become a trader in the system.

Thoughts?

Thanks.
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
Personally I like the idea of top quality frags on offer for a fair $. I would be keen to participate myself, but wonder how that would work out or whether it would be appropriate being a business?

The more you think about it the more complicated the concept arises. In a perfect world the person would obtain / purchase the frag and an agreement would need to be in place that they would indeed make future frags from that coral available to the program or perhaps they could be free to do what they want after returning a set amount back?

A lot of people might just want to buy keep the coral and grow it out never to return any?

Some like me if I was to participate would be happy to return a number back to the program but if I was able to mass produce it I might need to sell through my business at a latter date?

Others might just have a tank wipe out or lose the frag or it might just not grow well in their system so they are not able to return any?

No program would be perfect I was just wondering if there should be some clear rules in the form of a gentleman's agreement of what was expected of you should you purchase one of these corals? Just something simple like swear with your hand on a bible whilst standing on one leg or the like if you fail to return a frag to jump in a fire. :p

Seriously just a simple agreement to endeavour to do your best to return at least one frag back to the program. Then perhaps some points / reward system for those who manage to bring lots of frags back ?

I can see a lot of long term benefit to the hobby being able to demonstrate a long lineage from a coral once collected in the wild. I have always tried myself to keep tabs on our own corals where they came from and when also numbers sold over the years. This info can be very beneficial when demonstrating to certain organizations as to the impacts our hobby makes on wild reefs and perhaps what we are doing about it. You see a lot of statistics wheeled out about numbers of fish corals etc that die before they even reach the shop etc. its nice to be able to wheel out some of your own when the need arises. :D
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Wow, thank you for the post @Oceanarium.

I will try to answer your questions as best I can with the 'information' so far. Though I should warn, things are likely to change.


Personally I like the idea of top quality frags on offer for a fair $. I would be keen to participate myself, but wonder how that would work out or whether it would be appropriate being a business?
Being a business will make no difference as the idea is conservation. You will need to follow the rules of the program the same as everyone else, whatever the rules turn out to be.



The more you think about it the more complicated the concept arises. In a perfect world the person would obtain / purchase the frag and an agreement would need to be in place that they would indeed make future frags from that coral available to the program or perhaps they could be free to do what they want after returning a set amount back?
Each frag will have a frag cell. The frag cell will be numbered and dedicated to the original coral (where the frag came from). There may be multiple frag cells (with unique I.D numbers) for a single original coral. The frag cell with then be dedicated to that particular 'original coral' for the remainder of it's life. Basically each frag cell obtained must be passed on with a replacement frag (from the previous frag) to the next person. Should a member obtain a frag cell, grow out the frag, frag it, then pass on the frag cell with a frag inside of it, whatever is left in their tank (the original frag they received) is theirs to do what they like with. They can sell it or swap it outside of the system, or let it grow and do nothing. It will be up to the member as they have already repaid their debt.



A lot of people might just want to buy keep the coral and grow it out never to return any?
Every frag cell will be tracked. We will know who has the frag cell at any given point. Should a user fail to pass on the frag cell (and a frag), they will be banned from the frag system and any other trading system (including the marketplace) on The Reefuge permanently.



Some like me if I was to participate would be happy to return a number back to the program but if I was able to mass produce it I might need to sell through my business at a latter date?
As long as you repaid your 'debt' (whatever you receive you send out again), then you are free to do as you like with what you have grown in your tank. You can sell it, trade it, etc. It is at that point 100% property of yourself.



Others might just have a tank wipe out or lose the frag or it might just not grow well in their system so they are not able to return any?
No idea what happens in this case. Perhaps we can figure it out?




No program would be perfect I was just wondering if there should be some clear rules in the form of a gentleman's agreement of what was expected of you should you purchase one of these corals? Just something simple like swear with your hand on a bible whilst standing on one leg or the like if you fail to return a frag to jump in a fire. :p
There will be a mandatory buy-in when you enter the system. The cost at this time is not known, but that should cut away most of the time-wasters and those who never intended on giving anything back. Should a user fail to pass on the frag cell (and a frag), they will be banned from the frag system and any other trading system (including the marketplace) on The Reefuge permanently.



Seriously just a simple agreement to endeavour to do your best to return at least one frag back to the program. Then perhaps some points / reward system for those who manage to bring lots of frags back ?
No reward will be in place. This is a system for those who wish to participate. The reward will be seeing the single frag multiply over and over again.



I can see a lot of long term benefit to the hobby being able to demonstrate a long lineage from a coral once collected in the wild. I have always tried myself to keep tabs on our own corals where they came from and when also numbers sold over the years. This info can be very beneficial when demonstrating to certain organizations as to the impacts our hobby makes on wild reefs and perhaps what we are doing about it. You see a lot of statistics wheeled out about numbers of fish corals etc that die before they even reach the shop etc. its nice to be able to wheel out some of your own when the need arises. :D[/quote]

As stated before, each frag cell will be documented and thus everyone will be able to see how many hands have had hold of its contents, and how many 'children' the original cell has had.

Thanks.
 

VaultBoy

Member
Jul 10, 2011
2,279
673
Gawler, S.A.
I think having individual frag cells that can only have a particular species of coral frag in them will be counter productive... For example we start the trading system with a fixed number of cells and they are all filled and shipped out by willing participants with serial numbers logged in the system showing dates, user names, species info etc. then the users that recieved said frags now have to grow out the frag they received then re-frag it let the frag settle onto the tile then ship it to the next person. This will take months. Am I missing something here or is this what is intended?

I know a lot of people on here already swap, sell, trade, share and donate frags on here already. I dont want to see this system get so complicated that people dont bother using it and just trade outside of the system. I think it would be better to build a system around the community as it is developing rather than trying to herd the community into a complicated program.

Perhaps a system where people make a small contribution to a fund to start their membership which can be used as a collective to purchase starting colonies which can be fragged and sent to the participants who have a certain time period to either return a frag of the same or another suitable (deemed suitable by the group) species to the system or be required to pay a small tribute to the fund, in order to retain membership, which could be in turn used to purchase another starter colony. With this system we have control over what corals enter the program and we have a way to fund it. Once some variety is established and generations of colonies are returning to the system it could be as easy as paying your initial membership and registering for the LPS lucky dip where you will get the next LPS frag returned to the system or the Zoa lucky dip or the SPS etc.

As new members join the group if the waiting lists are getting too long the fund could be used to purchase another starter colony and, then fragged and a new branch is added to the family tree. All of the corals entering into the system could be logged and when they are fragged and they grow and they are returned to the system as the next generation they will be logged again this would build into a big family tree and could be very interesting data regarding the sustainability of the hobby.

Ok so I just read that back and im not entirely sure it makes sense... I hope someone follows!