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[chimaera]

I think having individual frag cells that can only have a particular species of coral frag in them will be counter productive... For example we start the trading system with a fixed number of cells and they are all filled and shipped out by willing participants with serial numbers logged in the system showing dates, user names, species info etc. then the users that recieved said frags now have to grow out the frag they received then re-frag it let the frag settle onto the tile then ship it to the next person. This will take months. Am I missing something here or is this what is intended?

I know a lot of people on here already swap, sell, trade, share and donate frags on here already. I dont want to see this system get so complicated that people dont bother using it and just trade outside of the system. I think it would be better to build a system around the community as it is developing rather than trying to herd the community into a complicated program.

Perhaps a system where people make a small contribution to a fund to start their membership which can be used as a collective to purchase starting colonies which can be fragged and sent to the participants who have a certain time period to either return a frag of the same or another suitable (deemed suitable by the group) species to the system or be required to pay a small tribute to the fund, in order to retain membership, which could be in turn used to purchase another starter colony. With this system we have control over what corals enter the program and we have a way to fund it. Once some variety is established and generations of colonies are returning to the system it could be as easy as paying your initial membership and registering for the LPS lucky dip where you will get the next LPS frag returned to the system or the Zoa lucky dip or the SPS etc.

As new members join the group if the waiting lists are getting too long the fund could be used to purchase another starter colony and, then fragged and a new branch is added to the family tree. All of the corals entering into the system could be logged and when they are fragged and they grow and they are returned to the system as the next generation they will be logged again this would build into a big family tree and could be very interesting data regarding the sustainability of the hobby.

Ok so I just read that back and im not entirely sure it makes sense... I hope someone follows!

I follow and pretty much agree - a cell linked to one individual coral seems like it would be too restrictive and activity in the program would be minimal. Zoas, SPS and others can take years to grow from a frag into a size that is 'fraggable' again so someone would just be hanging onto a cell for that whole time patiently waiting.

And we know that not only are there tank crashes, but this is a hobby where interest can wane after a year or two - lots of tanks get sold up or neglected after that kind of time.

Maybe the idea of a cell being linked to a type of coral would work - eg Cell 1705 can only house zoas, Cell 0023 can only house Birdsnest SPS, etc

 

[The Reefuge]

Hello everyone,

Okay, so I have read all the suggestions, keep them coming. Just for a quick update of the rules so far (we will keep modifying them and the system as we go).

• User must pay an initial membership
• Any frags purchased into the system must come from aquacultured coral
• Frag Cells can house any frag, but the frag must be of the same species

We could also work it so users give back more than they took from the system. For each frag a user receives they must give back two? We can keep feeding new frag cells into the system to allow for this.

 

[Oceanarium]

For each frag a user receives they must give back two?

This would need to be required plus encouragement for them to bring back many more as well.... exponential growth. Other wise considering the non returns and the ones that don't make the shipping process etc you will end up at a production neutral rate.

For conservation purposes you need to be creating much more than your consuming.

I follow and pretty much agree - a cell linked to one individual coral seems like it would be too restrictive and activity in the program would be minimal.

Indeed it would not come easy at first latter the exponential growth kicks in. Perhaps some could have colonies of a decent size and bring far more than three clones initially?

Don't mind me throwing these ideas in the ring, just food for thought best to thrash it out well now before settling on the best program for the reefuge.

Also consider some standards, if people are paying for these they should no what to expect.... ie. X number of polyps per zoa frag.

Postage does not work to well east west and vice versa though the time difference helps the west east trip and hinders east west. Perhaps that's where we may be able to help out transition of some frags from one side to the other from time to time?

 

[The Reefuge]

Hello everyone,

As an example I have made an original coral a Star Polyp and set the frag rate at 3 months (for the sake of the example).

I hope this is a bit more clear. As the system grows, users will have time to grow out their frags.

• The Reefuge frags a coral
• Gives frag to @Oceanarium
• Oceanarium receives frag and begins growing it out (at the same time The Reefuge is also growing out the original frag)
• Oceanarium frags his coral and gives the frag to @chimaera (The Reefuge has also been growing his coral at the same time, and gives his new frag to @VaultBoy)
• The Reefuge and Oceanarium are now both growing their coral, as is Vaultboy and Chimaera
• Chimaera gives his frag to @MTG and Vaultboy gives his to @MagicJ (The Reefuge has been growing his coral and gives a frag to @leodb89 and Oceanarium gives his frag to @DavidS)

As you can see, in the span of 6 months there is now 8 frags floating around which came from 1 coral.

I hope that sort of makes sense. If anyone can graph the logic of it in a better way that would be great.

Thanks.

 

[VaultBoy]

Hello everyone,

Okay, so I have read all the suggestions, keep them coming. Just for a quick update of the rules so far (we will keep modifying them and the system as we go).

• User must pay an initial membership
• Any frags purchased into the system must come from aquacultured coral
• Frag Cells can house any frag, but the frag must be of the same species

We could also work it so users give back more than they took from the system. For each frag a user receives they must give back two? We can keep feeding new frag cells into the system to allow for this.

On point number 2 I think it should be acceptable to use a wild caught specimen that has been shown to thrive in a captive environment for at least 6 months. For example I could buy a wild collected Duncan colony and have it in my tank for 6 months with evidence in my tank journal etc. and then the frag program purchases said coral to be fragged. This would allow new, more suitable species to enter the system allowing for some growth and variety.

On point number 3 limiting the cells to even the same species may be too much I think. If we have clearly defined groups of frags ie. SPS, LPS, zoas, mushies etc. as long as the frag going back in the cell is in the same group should be fine in my opinion. I just dont want it to become a trading group so caught up in the rules that we only end up trading the same brown zoas back and forth, I want some variety!

@Oceanarium I certainly agree that we need some quality control and standards that must be met before a frag being admitted into the system. I think all frags need to be photographed and registered. Possibly being submitted before a "council" who give the frag a value or rating. This rating then determines the bounty payable if you accept the frag and then are unable to return it to the system within the time frame required. If this value is determined upfront then everyone is aware what they are in for.

Also I think that having to return 2 x the value of what you accept is perhaps a bit much. I only say this as the number of members accepting frags is going to limit the number of people being able to return them and forcing growth faster than there are people to grow the system may cause it to falter early. Perhaps a return of 1.5 x the value of the original frag would be a steadier growth rate... I think there will need to be some trial and error on this area!

 

[chimaera]

Hello everyone,

As an example I have made an original coral a Star Polyp and set the frag rate at 3 months (for the sake of the example).



View attachment 14851

I hope this is a bit more clear. As the system grows, users will have time to grow out their frags.

• The Reefuge frags a coral
• Gives frag to @Oceanarium
• Oceanarium receives frag and begins growing it out (at the same time The Reefuge is also growing out the original frag)
• Oceanarium frags his coral and gives the frag to @chimaera (The Reefuge has also been growing his coral at the same time, and gives his new frag to @VaultBoy)
• The Reefuge and Oceanarium are now both growing their coral, as is Vaultboy and Chimaera
• Chimaera gives his frag to @MTG and Vaultboy gives his to @MagicJ (The Reefuge has been growing his coral and gives a frag to @leodb89 and Oceanarium gives his frag to @DavidS)

As you can see, in the span of 6 months there is now 8 frags floating around which came from 1 coral.


I hope that sort of makes sense. If anyone can graph the logic of it in a better way that would be great.

Thanks.

Your logic makes sense ... and you/we can try it ... but I feel it is way to complicated and restrictive to work. You are assuming that coral grows at a similar rate in all tanks, irrespective of the water conditions, lighting used, placement in the tank etc.

It also assumes that I am happy to continuously grow out and frag a coral. Whereas the ultimate use for frags is to place in the display and grow out for yourself, without hacking pieces off every few months (unless trimming becomes necessary, or you can frag a piece that has minimal visual impact). Fragging after placement is often extremely difficult, depending on location in the tank, so it would more restrict to those that have a frag tank or are willing to grow out frags continuously on their frag rack.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try something like this, I guess I just can't imagine it in action ...

 

[DavidS]

Your logic makes sense ... and you/we can try it ... but I feel it is way to complicated and restrictive to work. You are assuming that coral grows at a similar rate in all tanks, irrespective of the water conditions, lighting used, placement in the tank etc.

^This is an excellent point @chimaera has made.

Growth rates of frags can vary for a whole myriad of reasons (and some are hard to quantify beyond the examples given above but no less exist) - it's quite possible that if a frag from a parent colony was given to 6 different people that 1 person has the frag die for no obvious reason, 1 person happens to have perfect conditions for that particular species and has a brilliant growth rate and can churn them out regularly, 2 get a reasonable growth rate but may find it takes 6 months to get enough growth to get a single frag off it, and the other 2 manage to just keep the coral alive and healthy looking but experience bugger all growth at all.

So with that particular set of issues it's vary hard to have a set frag rate given the wild variations of growth times, and a probability of loss. If you don't have the systems success hanging on an expected rate of fragging it won't be quite such an issue. You can practically guarantee the faster you want any coral to grow, the slower it will be so the system needs to cope with this.

 

[TheJordans]

^This is an excellent point @chimaera has made.

Growth rates of frags can vary for a whole myriad of reasons (and some are hard to quantify beyond the examples given above but no less exist) - it's quite possible that if a frag from a parent colony was given to 6 different people that 1 person has the frag die for no obvious reason, 1 person happens to have perfect conditions for that particular species and has a brilliant growth rate and can churn them out regularly, 2 get a reasonable growth rate but may find it takes 6 months to get enough growth to get a single frag off it, and the other 2 manage to just keep the coral alive and healthy looking but experience bugger all growth at all.

So with that particular set of issues it's vary hard to have a set frag rate given the wild variations of growth times, and a probability of loss. If you don't have the systems success hanging on an expected rate of fragging it won't be quite such an issue. You can practically guarantee the faster you want any coral to grow, the slower it will be so the system needs to cope with this.

I'm so glad that someone has mentioned this as it's what I've been thinking as I've been reading this!

I would find the "time frame expectation" quite daunting, and as someone who has no fragging experience but would love to participate, it could just be enough to make me think twice. Don't get me wrong - there needs to be some sort of time constraint to ensure that participants don't forget why they're there ;) But, three months would have me nervous.

Otherwise, the concept has merit! Admittedly I had to google "frag cell" to work out what on earth they were, but now that I'm worded up on it, I like the idea of those, too. All this "limiting the cell to one species could be counter productive" is over my (very!) tired head, but I do have some comments on some other bits ;)

Re: the parent colony being "purchased" into the system.
Is that really necessary? Sure, you can go and buy the super expensive corals that I'll never be able to afford and start fragging them up! I'm all for that! But otherwise, when it comes to species that are regularly found in our tanks, then I vote "donate". If I have a coral that I'm happy to frag, then I am similarly happy to DONATE some into the program. But hey, that's just me :)

Re: only purchasing aquacultured corals as the parent colonies.
I personally don't have an issue with a parent colony having been wild caught. Why? Because all it takes is for it to be fragged ONCE and suddenly we've lessened the demand on the wild. Keep repeating this and in time there will be so many "aquacultured" colonies of that species in our systems that there will be less demand on the LFS to stock them and ultimately, less removed from the wild.
It's a tried and tested solution to the global population issues of endangered species of land animals. If it's good enough for zoos, then it's good enough for me :)


Now, on to a few other ideas that I had in the middle of the night a few nights back:

Fragging.
I for one have never fragged anything before, but I'd really like to learn.
I thought that perhaps there could be fragging lessons/tutorials held by any interested members? Perhaps anyone wanting to attend could pay a small attendance fee to the Reefuge that could go towards supplying the host with frag tiles/plugs for the demo, and then remainder could go into the kitty for the above frag exchange?

Failing corals.
I think that there are too many corals dying in systems that they're unhappy in, and sadly, it's unavoidable. The worst part is that, once the coral dies, the keeper is likely to buy another one to replace it.
Now I'm no angel - I'll admit to being guilty of it. I'm not saying that people are cruel or irresponsible - we're just human :) But!
What if there was almost like a "pound" for these corals? Somewhere where people are encouraged to SURRENDER the coral (or fish/invert/nem etc) to a system where it could live out its days happily. ie, We have a sun coral that appeared happy in our tank for about 6mths, but now it's deteriorating. When it first started to recede Les assured me that we could find it a better spot in the tank, but with life as it is at the moment, that hasn't happened and it's looking increasingly sad :( I'd like someone to take it and give it a good chance at recuperation, but I don't want to advertise it as "free". FTGH often attracts newbies who's tanks are just starting out and who's pockets can't really stretch to buy anything else from the LFS just yet, and something tells me that's not the best place for "sunny" lol
Having something like that advertised on the site could also show the 'Fuge's commitment to conservation by encouraging keepers to always do what's right by the corals given that so many of them are WC.
Just a thought ;)

...Aaand that's enough for now. I have others, but I have no idea if any of this is making any sense as we've had some crappy days lately and I feel like a zombie! So please take these ideas with a grain of salt and don't feel the need to respond to them if they are as ridiculous as I'm thinking they could be lol

Bek

 

[Dmitroid]

I think this is a great idea and there seems to be far too much scrutiny over something that should be really simple. It's not too much to ask to get hobbyests to donate some of their excess frags to the cause and give back to something that gives us all so much enjoyment. At a measly $20 a frag most of the time, it is a small donation to give if it means a small scratch in the possibility that we can grow a sustainable hobby some day. IMHO most people would do the right thing by the community and it's exciting to be part of the solution, not the problem.

 

[Oceanarium]

Just wondering if there is room for a couple of options or tiers for a frag program ? Something to suit everyone.

A simple version low rules anything goes trade what you like, much like probably already happens in the market sect. Just a little more formal, so people can put their hand up join a queue to be added to the list of those eagerly awaiting.

A more formal version with a few extra rules to track particular lineage, of highly desirable proven performers. The first option could even be considered the proving ground for those corals to move up to the second tier. Say once a coral proves to grow well and prosper it gets issued a 'certificate of pedigree' to receive one of those corals you enter into some kind of agreement that will include bringing more back to the program to maintain the exponential growth of the genetic strain?

I like @VaultBoy 's idea of some sort of council, they could decide on when a coral gets its certificate of pedigree and set / review pricing etc on the clones. This could include at what size / number of polyps etc a clone must reach to be tradeable etc.

Pete

 

[VaultBoy]

Just wondering if there is room for a couple of options or tiers for a frag program ? Something to suit everyone.

A simple version low rules anything goes trade what you like, much like probably already happens in the market sect. Just a little more formal, so people can put their hand up join a queue to be added to the list of those eagerly awaiting.

A more formal version with a few extra rules to track particular lineage, of highly desirable proven performers. The first option could even be considered the proving ground for those corals to move up to the second tier. Say once a coral proves to grow well and prosper it gets issued a 'certificate of pedigree' to receive one of those corals you enter into some kind of agreement that will include bringing more back to the program to maintain the exponential growth of the genetic strain?

I like @VaultBoy 's idea of some sort of council, they could decide on when a coral gets its certificate of pedigree and set / review pricing etc on the clones. This could include at what size / number of polyps etc a clone must reach to be tradeable etc.

Pete

Awesome!

A 2 tier program would allow for users to enter the program with little risk/responsibility on the lower, casual, tier and I would assume that mostly the more common and faster growing corals would appear here as they are of a lesser perceived value. Then when a user is ready they can sign up for the upper more formal tier where all frags are tracked and there is an expectation that you will return more than you take from the system or otherwise pay the exit fee.

"Certificate of pedigree" is an awesome idea and would allow us to really show that we are trying to develop a system where we are becoming less reliant on wild capturing/collection of species. As I see it, to gain the certificate you would have to show that the coral is suitable for healthy growth under a variety of tank conditions and lighting types. The only way to achieve this is to trade some frags in the casual tier group and have at least a 2nd or 3rd generation return to the system where they could be assessed by the council/representative body and granted a certificate allowing them to be added to the "pool" in the formal trading tier where they will be tracked and a family tree started.

Lots of good ideas happening... Keep them coming.

 

[The Reefuge]

Hello everyone,

A multiple tier program will most likely not happen. There is a lot of work to do in just maintaining the site, then there is building it as well. Everything created needs to work automatically. A slight bit of work that is extra weighs down. We can come up with something, we just need to think about it more.

Thanks.

 

[VaultBoy]

I understand that it is harder to build a 2 tier system. The lower tier doesnt have to be much at all as I see it, just another sub-forum. It only has to be an area where we can start to trade frags in order to start the tracking process... I do understand that @thereefuge already has a workload and even god has his limits!

@Oceanarium another way to achieve a similar result would be to have a "tag" that could be listed in the frag description when advertised to show that it is a "pedigree". IE. "<ZOA><PED>Eagle eyes. 6 polyps." as opposed to "<ZOA><WC>Fire and Ice. 6 polyps." This would allow all of the tank bred frags to be tracked, could even list their generation.