Reef Discussion

[macca_75]

Hey guys,

First up, my goal(s) in order of importance are:

1. Suitable lighting for all current and future inhabitants
2. Reduce my power consumption. Currently I run 2 x 250W halides with a separate Moonlight system. I must add that this also has a slight “dead spot” in the middle as the halides are placed on the outer thirds of the tank)
3. Gradual ramp up/ramp down with Sunrise/sunset. I’m not interested in other features such as lightning storms, etc until someone shows me a benefit to the system.
4. Color’s to make the corals “pop”
5. Being able to dim separate color channels independently would be good – thinking a more redish color for sunrise, bright white during the day and a bluer asthentically pleasing color of a night. It would be controlled by a controller and not something I need knobs and switches for. Manual override (knobs and switches) would be good, but not essential.
6. I already have a moonlight system, but if I can build it in here then why not..

I currently do (and plan to) stock mostly softies, Zoa’s, etc with a few LPS and the occasional SPS. Happy to forgo the SPS if it makes things easier.

My tank is a traditional 8x2x2. I have a shelf that runs about 50cm above the tank to hang lights from, etc if required. Heaps of power points and shelf space available. It has a Euro brace, but also has 2 additional cross braces, giving me 3 “portals” when looking from the top down.
Looks of the unit don’t concern me – it’s an enclosed fish tank room.

So with that out of the way.....

After spending a fair amount of time on the phone to “Reef to River” in Geelong (I originally rang to see if they had a Maxspect Razor hanging somewhere in operation I could look at) I have been all but convinced that going any “off the shelf” LED solution is going to be out of my budget at the moment. This came about from the comment that (forgetting length for a second) the only LED’s capable of lighting footprints of 2x2 (2’ deep x 2’ wide) are the Radions (true or false???) You simply add more in a straight line to match the length of your tank. (Thinking running 1 string of lights here – obviously I can run 2 or 3 strings, but doubling or tripling the number of units needed is way out of my budget).
What are peoples (experienced) opinions on the above?

Now if I choose to start going to DIY route I know there are heaps of threads out there, but I can’t seem to find the answers I want. The technical bits seem the easiest to find answers on.
For simplicity of reply/quoting answers I have broken my thoughts/questions up.

1. Could I simply run a straight line of “strings” of LED’s? Say lines x cm’s apart (each string being 8’ long), from the front to back to get good even coverage. If so, whats the spacing between strings or how many would I need to cover the 2 ‘ width? Advantages here is heatsinks become cheaper and will allow more airflow, thus being more effective.
2. If I could build using the “strings” method above can the front and rear most be angled to throw more light back into the centre of the tank and keep more light off the front and rear glass (less algae to clean is always a good thing)
3. How far apart should the LED’s be placed on the string (this will determine how many on a string). I’m happy to run them at less than 100% to get more even coverage (hoping this doesn’t blow the budget to much). I don't want "Spotlighting" to be visable.
4. What is the widest lense I can put on it but still have enough PAR for Zoa’s, etc on the sandbed?

I have a long way to go here, but want to ensure I get it right.

Once I can figure out what to try from the above I will need to start considering which LED's to use and in what ratio, then how to best distibute them evenly, then how to wire them more effectively, them how to control them, then.....

 

[chimaera]

For an 8ft your starting point would be 3x Razors ($1800), 3x Radions ($2400) or 2x Ilumagic ($3000). What budget are you looking at?

Sounds like you have discounted the Razors? Is that just based on concern over depth penetration? I wouldn't think 2ft would be an issue ...

For DIY, clustering of LEDs is the best way to minimize spotlighting, which would require a wider heatsink. Though Synodontis runs a 'string' setup over his 10ft I think and from memory the colour was great.

 

[mscott]

defeninatly ask syn, his tank was amazing.
However i think at this size its almost cheeper to go for off the shelf units.
But it restricts your ability for different colour combinations and all that.

 

[Joshwaaaa]

For an 8ft your starting point would be 3x Razors ($1800), 3x Radions ($2400) or 2x Ilumagic ($3000). What budget are you looking at?

Sounds like you have discounted the Razors? Is that just based on concern over depth penetration? I wouldn't think 2ft would be an issue ...

For DIY, clustering of LEDs is the best way to minimize spotlighting, which would require a wider heatsink. Though Synodontis runs a 'string' setup over his 10ft I think and from memory the colour was great.

From what I have been seeing about radions 3 over 8ft wouldnt be enough. speaking to a bloke who has 2 over a 5fter and doesnt think that it is quite enough coverage

 

[chimaera]

Yeah that's why I said starting point ... ideal would be +1 of each of those options listed I think. I reckon one covers 2.5ft pretty well but 2ft better if that makes sense.

 

[macca_75]

Probably looking at 4 Radions which is out of my budget.

 

[mscott]

well which LED's would you buy??
Postage from aquastyles gets cheeper the more you buy, but the LED's arent top quality, CREE LED's are top quality and will cost you a bit more, but they are quality

 

[Joshwaaaa]

As for the diy route, I think it's a good way to go. Everything you want out of your light is easily achievable with of the shelf controllers and drivers. And changing spectrum to suit is simple

The main problem i see with strings is running the wiring between each separate color you will end up with a rather long wire run. Rather then just being able to criss cross between the next closest led.

As for spread this here is my mate's 6x2x2 the heatsinks are 500x195 each and the leds are running 80 degree lenses. I honestly think he could have gone 60's

 

[Synodontis]

Morning macca_75

We just used strings for our light also. If it wasn't for MagicJ posting so much info & helping us out it would have never got done. Like you, we wanted the same things....
1) Set & forget
2) Full even coverage - not a wedge of light with darker corners.
3) No spot lighting
4) Ramp up & down
5) Each colour controlled separate to the others.
6) Longevity of the components

Some simple answers to our requests that may suit you..........

1) Typhon controller - controls 4 separate channels, we use two of these.
2) On a 2.5ft wide tank, I went 150mm in from the ends & sides before the LED's start.
3) Spacing along the front of the tank is 110mm centre to centre, front to rear of tank the spacing is from the first LED to the next is between 40mm - 60mm. There are 8 strings that run full length of the tank.
4) Typhon controller - you can set the % for each individual channel & time to fade up/down.
5) Typhon - 4 channels.
6) We went for brand names straight up. Light is an important part of reefing so did not want to skimp here, within reason. Meanwell drivers & Cree LED's provide the main light.

If it was me doing a 8x2x2 tank I would start with the following....
80x Cree LED's - colour mix to be decided
6x Meanwell 60-48P drivers
2x Full length heat sinks

Being two foot deep, you maybe able to cut down the LED's or increase the spacing. We wanted to go overboard a little for "insurance" against the future, so this might be the same again. :)

Taken me so long to type this, everyone will have replied & solved your problem lol :rolleyes

 

[macca_75]

Morning macca_75

We just used strings for our light also. If it wasn't for MagicJ posting so much info & helping us out it would have never got done. Like you, we wanted the same things....
1) Set & forget
2) Full even coverage - not a wedge of light with darker corners.
3) No spot lighting
4) Ramp up & down
5) Each colour controlled separate to the others.
6) Longevity of the components

Some simple answers to our requests that may suit you..........

1) Typhon controller - controls 4 separate channels, we use two of these.
2) On a 2.5ft wide tank, I went 150mm in from the ends & sides before the LED's start.
3) Spacing along the front of the tank is 110mm centre to centre, front to rear of tank the spacing is from the first LED to the next is between 40mm - 60mm. There are 8 strings that run full length of the tank.
4) Typhon controller - you can set the % for each individual channel & time to fade up/down.
5) Typhon - 4 channels.
6) We went for brand names straight up. Light is an important part of reefing so did not want to skimp here, within reason. Meanwell drivers & Cree LED's provide the main light.

If it was me doing a 8x2x2 tank I would start with the following....
80x Cree LED's - colour mix to be decided
6x Meanwell 60-48P drivers
2x Full length heat sinks

Being two foot deep, you maybe able to cut down the LED's or increase the spacing. We wanted to go overboard a little for "insurance" against the future, so this might be the same again. :)

Taken me so long to type this, everyone will have replied & solved your problem lol :rolleyes

Morning??? ;-)

And thanks - thats the sort info experience/info i was looking for.

I've been watching the DIY threads and have figured out who those in the know are - but I think you are missing 1 guru ;-) - he knows who he is.

I'm definitely going to need to make the trip out and see what you've got.

Thanks for the answers.

 

[Synodontis]

LOL, I'm pretty sure firechild will be along any tick of the clock. :)

 

[MagicJ]

I have been sick and I need to get to bed so I will have a closer look at this tomorrow night but if you are prepared to do a bit of work (maybe with some assistance from some Victorian members ;)) then I reckon you could do this for less than $800.

Is that within your budget?

 

[firechild]

1. Could I simply run a straight line of “strings” of LED’s? Say lines x cm’s apart (each string being 8’ long), from the front to back to get good even coverage. If so, whats the spacing between strings or how many would I need to cover the 2 ‘ width? Advantages here is heatsinks become cheaper and will allow more airflow, thus being more effective.

Yes, you could do that but depending on a number of factors (optic angle, height of LEDs above the tank, number of LED colours, etc) you could end up with a disco effect. With wide optics, plenty of space between lights and water and a small number of colours (e.g. royal blue and neutral white) you could get away with this arrangement. My preference was a compromise between tight clusters and even spacing and I only used 4 colours (which was still just blue and white emitters but 2 types of each). However, I would design it differently depending on the space I was working with, will you be mounting heatinks in a hood (meaning aesthetics is less important) or will you be building a fixture that you want to be visually pleasing? Even putting emitters in pairs or 3s (white + blue or white + 2xblue) and then spacing these groups evenly will increase blending and reduce spotlighting.

2. If I could build using the “strings” method above can the front and rear most be angled to throw more light back into the centre of the tank and keep more light off the front and rear glass (less algae to clean is always a good thing)

Absolutely. A lot of people also counter this problem by using tighter optics on the outside (i.e. 80 degree for most emitters but 60 degree for the front and back row and each end) but angled rows would work just as well, if not better because it will increase the blending between the first 2 and last 2 rows.

3. How far apart should the LED’s be placed on the string (this will determine how many on a string). I’m happy to run them at less than 100% to get more even coverage (hoping this doesn’t blow the budget to much). I don't want "Spotlighting" to be visable.

This will be dependent on optic angle, drive current and height. You could use Cree XM-L emitters, drive them at 2.5A and use a smaller number but you would get "hotspots" under the emitter similar, though less dramatic, to what you get under MH lamps. I prefer to use more emitters run at lower current (I use 700mA drivers and even then only run them up to about 85% in the middle of the day). Obviously using more emitters will be more expensive (though keep in mind XM-L emitters are substantialy more expensive anyway) but you will get a more pleasing overall effect.

4. What is the widest lense I can put on it but still have enough PAR for Zoa’s, etc on the sandbed?

Will be dependent on number of emitters, drive current and height (notice how the relationship between these elements keeps coming up). You could get away with 80 or 90 degree optics and run the lights closer to the water. Optic height should really be dictated by height because regardless of PAR values, you want fairly ubiquitous lighting.

I'd sart by deciding on what colours you want to use, this will dictate the alignment of the emitters relative to each other (whether they need to be clustered or if they can be spread more evenly). Don't worry too much about intensity because that can be altered with drive current (obviously provided a minimum coverage is achieved).

 

[macca_75]

I have been sick and I need to get to bed so I will have a closer look at this tomorrow night but if you are prepared to do a bit of work (maybe with some assistance from some Victorian members ;)) then I reckon you could do this for less than $800.

Is that within your budget?

$800 is way better than what I was thinking about ;)

If I could have given you more likes I would have.

No rush, I still need to get the funds but your number is far better.

I have the skills for DIY (so I say anyway), but not the time so it works perfect. I'll (and by I'll I mean heaps of questions coming up) start trying to figure exaclty what I need and then start buying the bits as funds allow - it will take me that long to drill and tap heat sinks, etc.:p

 

[macca_75]

Yes, you could do that but depending on a number of factors (optic angle, height of LEDs above the tank, number of LED colours, etc) you could end up with a disco effect. With wide optics, plenty of space between lights and water and a small number of colours (e.g. royal blue and neutral white) you could get away with this arrangement. My preference was a compromise between tight clusters and even spacing and I only used 4 colours (which was still just blue and white emitters but 2 types of each). However, I would design it differently depending on the space I was working with, will you be mounting heatinks in a hood (meaning aesthetics is less important) or will you be building a fixture that you want to be visually pleasing? Even putting emitters in pairs or 3s (white + blue or white + 2xblue) and then spacing these groups evenly will increase blending and reduce spotlighting.



Absolutely. A lot of people also counter this problem by using tighter optics on the outside (i.e. 80 degree for most emitters but 60 degree for the front and back row and each end) but angled rows would work just as well, if not better because it will increase the blending between the first 2 and last 2 rows.



This will be dependent on optic angle, drive current and height. You could use Cree XM-L emitters, drive them at 2.5A and use a smaller number but you would get "hotspots" under the emitter similar, though less dramatic, to what you get under MH lamps. I prefer to use more emitters run at lower current (I use 700mA drivers and even then only run them up to about 85% in the middle of the day). Obviously using more emitters will be more expensive (though keep in mind XM-L emitters are substantialy more expensive anyway) but you will get a more pleasing overall effect.



Will be dependent on number of emitters, drive current and height (notice how the relationship between these elements keeps coming up). You could get away with 80 or 90 degree optics and run the lights closer to the water. Optic height should really be dictated by height because regardless of PAR values, you want fairly ubiquitous lighting.

I'd sart by deciding on what colours you want to use, this will dictate the alignment of the emitters relative to each other (whether they need to be clustered or if they can be spread more evenly). Don't worry too much about intensity because that can be altered with drive current (obviously provided a minimum coverage is achieved).

Um Um Um....

Heres a picture :)

On a more serious note looks (of the fixture) don't really concern me as it is in a tank room which is not visable from the "viewing" side. To give you an idea of scale the tank is 2' high. At a guess there would be 450mm about the tank the hang the unit so that's what I will need to work with. I can provide exact measurment when i get home tonight. Is ther a magic formula to use if the height (above the tank) is fixed and the tank depth is fixed?

Looks of the light....
I guess I really need to start getting around and trying to find something I like and want to emulate. Basically I'd like the nice redish "sun rise" effect, transition through to something like when the 14K halides are running during the day (maybe a little more actinic to help the corals and fish "Pop") and then have it transition to a calming blue of an evening (Thinking something like what T5's look like).

I currently run the Fishbowl Moonlight system - 3 moontubes - and it's about perfect so I would either simply stick these on "as is" or add 3 x 3W on a seperate channel and run it of the current Fishbowl controller.

I can bolt/hang fixtures from the shelf above - it's plenty strong and there is no lack of power points. (8 accessible around the tank without the use of any powerboards).

 

[Joshwaaaa]

it will take me that long to drill and tap heat sinks, etc.:p

if only you were in SA, I could just slap it on my CNC and that job would be done in about 10 mins. ;)

in saying that I believe its easier to just stick LEDs down, even if you want to replace them its just a matter of sliding a razor blade underneath. then scraping the remnants off and starting again. heatsink glue doesnt set hard so it's a quick and simple job

 

[macca_75]

if only you were in SA, I could just slap it on my CNC and that job would be done in about 10 mins. ;)

in saying that I believe its easier to just stick LEDs down, even if you want to replace them its just a matter of sliding a razor blade underneath. then scraping the remnants off and starting again. heatsink glue doesnt set hard so it's a quick and simple job

Is glue really the best way? Guess I have a fair amount of research to do.

And careful what you offer. I am forever in the need of extra Km's on the car (it's a crazy FBT thing where I am encourage to drive a few extra thousand Km's to save big $$$ on tax) so a road trip isn't out of the question...;)

 

[MagicJ]

I reckon tapping/screwing is too much like hard work - use something like Arctic Allumina and you will have no problems.

 

[macca_75]

Alrighty then. Sounds like I am glueing LEDS on. Check.

 

[MagicJ]

I am not sure that 80 would be quite enough for an 8ft tank, maybe look at around 108, although this could be reduced depending on where your braces, overflows etc are located. I also like 3 long rows on a 2ft wide tank.

Now, this is just to get you started, and to arrive at a rough budget, nothing more, nothing less at this stage :)

Cart Items

Qty​

Item Price​

Item Total​

Subtotal: $420.38
Shipping (USPS (Up to 30days Transit - Shipping confirmation only - No Tracking) (First Class Mail International Parcels)): $13.56
Shipping Insurance: $12.58
Grand Total: $446.52
True / Hyper Violet LED - 390-430nm (Quantity in Package: 2 Pack, Optic Degrees: 120°, Peak Wavelength: 405nm)

12​

$9.00​

$108.00​

Ocean Coral White (Optic Angle: 90°)

12​

$6.88​

$82.56​

CREE XT-E 3UP (Color: 2x Royal 1x Neutral)

16​

$11.50​

$184.00​

3UP - XT-E Optic - 40 Degrees

16​

$1.99​

$31.84​

Arctic Alumina Thermal Adhesive 5g

2​

$6.99​

$13.98​

Cart Items

Qty​

Item Price​

Item Total​

Subtotal: $306.00
Shipping (Ship by Order Total): $48.00
Grand Total: $354.00
Mean Well ELN-60-48P dimmable driver

9​

$34.00​

$306.00​

These 2 convert to around $785AUD at an exchange rate of 1.02.

Add in $100 for heatsink (aluminium channel will be fine in your situation), $100 for a controller + $50 for anything else

Total = $1,035

Not quite $800, but within 25% :)

But, this is just to get you started.

The Ocean Coral and 3UP (1 x Neutral White + 2 Royal Blue XT-E) I have not used but the look pretty good - the prices quoted are from ledgroupbuy.com but I understand that these are manufactured by Cutters in Melbourne (@welight is a member here) and they may be able to do a good price on these combinations + the drivers.

Also, as mentioned, you may be able top get away with a reduced number of leds. I have probably also over estimated the cost of the heatsink - Synodontis might be able to provide a local price.

So, in summary, I would think that this is the maximum that you would be looking to spend and could easily trim $100-$200 off the total.

EDIT - there are alternative Meanwell drivers which appear to be much better and would reduce the price by $100+. I have not used these drivers as they have been difficult to track down but I have just located a source - and they dim down to 0%, unlike the ELN series which cutout at around 16%. I will be ordering some to see how they go.

HTH