Tank Journal Archive

[Azedenkae]

Okay so let's see...

1x Hammer Coral?
1x Elegance
1x ???
1x Scoly
1x Amphiprion melanopus
1x Amphiprion ocellaris
1x Amphiprion clarkii
1x Paracanthurus hepatus
1x Zebrasoma flavescens

Returned the Yellow Tang because I just remember it was cyanide-caught.

Everything else is eating, so yay.

Corals looking good, so yay.

 

[chimaera]

Firstly, welcome! :welcome

The ???? coral looks like a Favia/Brain Coral.

Unfortunately the fish you have are not suitable for this size of tank. At all.

• Mixing clownfish breeds is not a good idea, I believe they could in time fight and even if not, three of them in a tank this size is too many. I would remove two and go with one pair of the same kind, they will be much happier and likely host your hammer coral. I would choose the Ocellaris.
• The blue tank needs a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy bigger tank to be happy. Like 10x as big as your tank.
• Likewise the yellow tang, so glad in a way you had to return it. Don't replace it.

So my advice, take the 'Dory' back, take two of the clowns back, get another Ocellaris and pair it up, get another nano-suitable fish or two - like a Coral Goby.

 

[RobbieMVFC]

Welcome . That hammer is huge.
p.s i agree with @chimaera.

 

[Nick_85]

Firstly, welcome! :welcome

The ???? coral looks like a Favia/Brain Coral.

Unfortunately the fish you have are not suitable for this size of tank. At all.

• Mixing clownfish breeds is not a good idea, I believe they could in time fight and even if not, three of them in a tank this size is too many. I would remove two and go with one pair of the same kind, they will be much happier and likely host your hammer coral. I would choose the Ocellaris.
• The blue tank needs a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy bigger tank to be happy. Like 10x as big as your tank.
• Likewise the yellow tang, so glad in a way you had to return it. Don't replace it.

So my advice, take the 'Dory' back, take two of the clowns back, get another Ocellaris and pair it up, get another nano-suitable fish or two - like a Coral Goby.

cant agree more! sorry mate hate to see such large growing fish in a tank that small

 

[Azedenkae]

Hey guys! Thanks for dropping by my TJ.

Thanks also for identifying the ???. XD I'ma lean towards Favia.

As for the fish, don't worry, they won't all be in there like that for long.

The Blue Tang will go when it grows larger.

As for the three Clownfish, one of the three will grow when the remaining two pair up. So there's no worries about that either.

I like how these guys look, and would make for a nice cross-species pairing, so I'll stick to two of the three, rather than two of the same species of Clownfish.

I do love the Melanopus and Clarkii though, so fingers-crossed they decide to pair up. The Occy will have to go, which will be a shame.

But hey, by then hopefully I'd have another tank for them, and Nemo and Dory can live together. :)

 

[Lesley]

Just realised I must be a soft reefer ? I actually get very attached to my fish (all named). The thought of just swapping it out cause it gets to big makes me sad ;( ! Think I will have to toughen up a bit !!!!

 

[CodyS]

I will reitterate some of what I said on facebook, in hope others won't read this thread and think this is an appropriate way to treat animals.

Not really good enough imo. You should plan your stock list around your current aquarium. If you get a larger tank in future THEN get the larger fish. Even at their current size that tank isn't large enough for that blue tang, let alone 3 types of clowns. Sorry mate, really not good enough, something needs to change. It is a nice tank and when stocked correctly should run with stability for a very long time and give much enjoyment.​

Hung, please re-think your position on this. I understand your not trying to do a bad thing. But you really are. The main issue here is not adding them all at once, it is the inappropriate selection of fish that you have evidence can't live together long term, or are likely to have issues. Also, the blue tang gets way too big for this tank, and at that size they grow like rockets when fed correctly.​

 

[Lesley]

I will reitterate some of what I said on facebook, in hope others won't read this thread and think this is an appropriate way to treat animals.

Not really good enough imo. You should plan your stock list around your current aquarium. If you get a larger tank in future THEN get the larger fish. Even at their current size that tank isn't large enough for that blue tang, let alone 3 types of clowns. Sorry mate, really not good enough, something needs to change. It is a nice tank and when stocked correctly should run with stability for a very long time and give much enjoyment.​

Hung, please re-think your position on this. I understand your not trying to do a bad thing. But you really are. The main issue here is not adding them all at once, it is the inappropriate selection of fish that you have evidence can't live together long term, or are likely to have issues. Also, the blue tang gets way too big for this tank, and at that size they grow like rockets when fed correctly.​

Well said. Probably what some if us thought but didn't have the balls to say ! Well done !

 

[cnidaria_chris]

the blue tang is already to large let alown when it gets bigger. Tank is to small even for the clowns imo. You need to rethink your choices

 

[holly]

Agree with @CodyS and @chimaera with ththe fishies.

The corals look fantastic though and with some differendifferent choices this tank will be amazing! If that tang gets stressed -> ich -> all your fish are dead. Best to make the right choices now and save your self heartache.

 

[Rob]

I think starting with a nano, although challenging in keeping it stable is a great way to start. Dont get sucked into dosing stuff, just do weekly water changes... would of been good to get some live rock in there before fish and corals, maybe you could get a small piece of live rock off a fellow reefer in NSW. I would not get it from the LFS as it will have a lot of die-off and pollute your tank, now its stocked.

With that amount of fish, did I say you better do weekly water changes :eek

Good luck

 

[Buddy]

May as well put in my opinion...

First off :welcome. I hope you stick around and learn as much as you can. Everyone has to start somewhere in this hobby! You have made some mistakes with stocking this tank. You aren't the first and won't be the last either. You need to listen to everyone in this thread and take it on board.

The corals you have are fine so we won't talk about them.

As for the three Clownfish, one of the three will grow when the remaining two pair up. So there's no worries about that either.

To be honest, your tank isn't big enough for Clownfish at all. You say you want to 'cross-breed' these Clownfish.
Have you done any research to see if these fish will even pair up?

I like how these guys look, and would make for a nice cross-species pairing, so I'll stick to two of the three, rather than two of the same species of Clownfish.
I do love the Melanopus and Clarkii though, so fingers-crossed they decide to pair up. The Occy will have to go, which will be a shame.

I assume you wanted to raise the babies if they actually paired up and breed? Have you researched how much time and equipment you need to raise clownfish?

For Clownfish to pair up and breed, they need to be comfortable and happy in their environment. This will never happen in a tank of your size.
Once Clownfish pair up, it can take years for them to even start laying eggs.

But hey, by then hopefully I'd have another tank for them, and Nemo and Dory can live together. :)

Clownfish are actually quite aggressive when defending their territory, they aren't friendly like Nemo and Dory in the Movie!
The most likely outcome is that one of your clownfish will kill the other two.
You should only buy fish according to the size of the tank you have now, not some tank in the future that you aren't even sure of yet.
The Blue Tang needs a big tank, I would say 5ft long minumum.


Here is what I would, and you should do.
Take your fish back to your fish store. If they were the ones that suggested these fish to you and knew your tank size, I would never go back there again.
Have a look at fish like assessors, coral gobys and other small gobys. Shrimps will do well in your tank too. Unfortunately there isn't much choice in a tank of your size.

You can have ONE pair of clownfish if you ever decide to upgrade. A tank that holds 80L-100L is a good starting point. No tangs in here though!

Don't feel like we are attacking you, we are just trying to help. Take it as a learning experience. Listen to our advice and you will be well on your way to becoming a good reefer :)

 

[Azedenkae]

@Lesley : I guess that's all individual preferences. I tend to not get too attached to my fish. I do love them and want to keep them forever, but if the time comes that they need to go, then they need to go.

@CodyS : See my response on Facebook. I dun wanna copy everything here. @_@ So much of a hassle.

@ezza : Apology accepted. Though chances are though that you still won't like what I'm doing regardless. I am glad that you did apologize though, even though you do think I'm wrong. And the fact that I am not thinking that I'm wrong will probably make you annoyed still, but well, we can act like adults, can't we? :)

@Rob : Plan is bi-weekly water changes, or at least weekly I guess. I can get fresh seawater everyday, so yeah. Also I am not a huge fan of live rock - not in this case anyways. I do have four litres of Marine Pure in there though, for biological filtration.

@The Reefuge : Thanks for stepping in. Appreciate it.

@Buddy : Thanks for the welcome. I personally do not believe I made a mistake with the stocking of this tank, especially given my future plans. I do know that the Blue Tang won't fit in there forever, or even within the next few months. But when it grows larger, I'll move it on.

As for the Clownfish, yes I have. There are examples of Clownfish crossbreeding, from closely related species such as the Percula and Ocellaris, to less related species, such as Ocellaris and Maroon Clownfish. Though I haven't found (or really try that hard to find) examples of a pairing from these three, the fact that Clowns from two different genera can crossbreed, and that Clowns of two different species of the same genus has crossbreed, leads to the likelihood that other species of said genus can crossbreed as well.

Maybe it won't happen, but the likelihood is there, and I want to find out.

And yes, I know they aren't friendly as Nemo and Dory from the movies. I know they are aggressive.

So again, when it happens, the others will be moved on. :) I disagree on the 'buy to the current size tank only' idea, it depends on the ability of the person to move the fish on. If I can do it, then I don't see a reason to limit myself.

And yes, I have done research on what people have done to breed Clownfish.

In the end, thank you for the suggestions, I do appreciate it. But for this particular instance, I'll keep following my plan. Hey, it may and probably change as I go along. But for now, that's the plan.

3x Clowns and a Blue Tang in a tank, remove the Blue Tang when it gets big, remove one of the Clowns when the remaining two pairs up.

 

[Buddy]

Ok, I see you arent really going to take any of my advice so I will make it short,

I personally do not believe I made a mistake with the stocking of this tank, especially given my future plans.

You may not believe you have made a mistake. The fact is you have and there is no denying that.

The Blue tang is already too big for your tank, they are a very active fish and need a lot of swimming room.
If you only take one thing from this, please remove the tang from your tank. Its just plain cruelty.
Good luck.

 

[Wrangy]

This actually makes me feel ill that you think it to not be cruel to have crammed 4 sizeable fish into 36L of water (not even when displacement of the space taken up by corals and such). There is no justifiable reason to have done this. None.

Yes you may have you could have plans for a 40,000L tank in the making but that doesn't give you the right to do this. I'm not sure of your reef keeping history or how long you've been in the hobby but if you've been a part of it for sometime then this is made all the worse. If you are new and taking advice from whoever you really need to have a rethink. Seriously.

A blue tang or any tang for that matter are incredibly active fish and need plenty of space for swimming, just because it fits in your tank and can swim a little, does not make it okay. The little guy will be out of his mind, especially with three bloody clowns in the same tank.

I'd love to know where you got your advice or plan from?? Please give us some more details. I'm never usually this harsh, ever but it's the fact that you think this is okay despite the numerous amounts of advice you're from very knowledgeable people who all care immensely about their animals in their care, you however apparently have no care in any way, shape or form for the animals that have been entrusted in your care.

Like all the other advice you've been given in this thread and other places it's going to be bouncing straight off you and your terribly deluded bubble, I hope that even a shred of it gets to you. Please listen, for the sake of the animals in your care. I'm not asking, I'm begging you. Please for the love of god listen, take all the fish back and rethink your stocking. Wait UNTIL you actually have your larger tank before purchasing such fish, it's not about what fits in the tank and looks happy because it has the ability to do circles in the tank slowly stressing to the point of death or sickness but you need to actually pay attention to what the fish actually needs to be cared for properly.

I wish you the best of luck if you decide to listen to us and all of the excellent suggestions you've been given and if not... I hope your journey in this fantastic hobby with wonderful animals is incredibly short lived.

 

[Lesley]

I agree with buddy. Extremely active fish even at the tiny size. Their instincts don't change, they don't know they are small ! It is cruel indeed ! It's not fair for us to take these beautiful creatures from the freedom of the ocean & place into a tank that doesn't even allow them to act normal & swim !

 

[Rob]

The best thing about a nano tank is proportion. You can stock with lots of smaller corals and create a fantastic scape without having to spend big on large pieces of coral and enjoy the scene you created. IMO Fish are secondary in a nano and have to be in proportion to the scape you have created. Neillw posted a pic of his nano a few days ago and it must of been the best reef tank I've seen on the reefuge, albeit ~50 l.
http://thereefuge.com/threads/update-6-1-year-birthday-party-update.11430/#post-146811

PS My blue tang has outgrown my 5' tank in the last 12 months, again it just looks too big for the scape/scene I am trying to achieve.

 

[Jimsim]

This feels like an episode of Keeping up with the Kardashians. No advice needed. Wheres da popcorn at!

 

[jayellul]

I think you should think about why you are doing this.

 

[Azedenkae]

Hi guys!

Thank for commenting on my update, I know that despite everything, you guys are just stating your true thoughts and simply just care about these companion of ours - which is why it's easy to get emotional.

But at the same time, that makes it hard to accept something... different. I know what I am doing is contradictory to what many believe, and what many would point to when they say 'do your research' and all that, e.g. websites such as LiveAquaria and all that.

Believe me, I did a lot of reading all over the net. In the end, a lot of it was inconsistent with what I learnt, or did not feel completely right. Relying then, on peer-reviewed scientific literature, I find that information is still incomplete nonetheless, though it definitely contradicted what the non-peer-reviewed literature stated.

Given that, I decided to follow my gut instincts, basing it on peer-reviewed literature where I can.

I will simply give a blanket response, mostly taken from my post on facebook. No point in retyping everything out:

I'm actually glad that you brought up LiveAquaria, because that's one of the places that's just chock full of wrong information. Take the first link for example, suggestions for minimum tank size for Clowns range from 20 to 30 gallons, but even you guys (not all) are suggesting that keeping a pair of Clownfish in my tank (9.5 gallons) is feasible.

In the end, it's their own suggestion, and it's just part of this common knowledge-base I was talking about, where everyone contributes their own opinions to form the current guidelines. Or to most people, 'rules and regulations' I guess.

Buttttt let's go with peer-reviewed papers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22926760

These guys kept pairs of Clownfish in 50 litre fish tanks, which is less than the minimum volume stated by LiveAquaria for one fish.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10211-012-0142-0

These guys kept groups of three Clownfish in 56 litre fish tanks for six months, for the purpose of inducing the development of a dominant female and male, much as what I am doing (though I will get rid of the third wheel rather than leaving it in). Again, 56 litres is definitely less than 20 gallons, and that's three individuals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20738687

A pair of Clownfish was kept in a 50 litre fish tank. Again, less than 20 gallons.

And so on. There are other papers that don't have any indication of the duration of stay at all, and the maximum I've found is 2.5 years in a 50 litre fish tank for a pair (can't find the paper, unfortunately). Of the above, the longest is... six months? Yeah sure, it's no two years, but it's still enough time to say that they aren't suffering - otherwise they'd probably have died or succumb to disease much earlier. I can find more, but anyways you guys get my point. Those websites such as LiveAquaria aren't all that reliable. I go there for basic information, but that's about it. And am always wary about what they suggest, and you guys should too.

Of course, none of it directly says 'putting four fish in a 9.5 gallon' is okay, nor does it refute it. But it does at least goes to show that what people've taken for 'common knowledge' is well, wrong. Yeah, sure, not all of it is wrong, but well, enough is.

:))

So there we go. A quick google for 'clownfish care' and out of the 10 pages, we have these sites to have wrong information on minimum tank size:

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/clownfish/ocellaris.php
http://www.petco.com/caresheets/fish/Clownfish.pdf
http://www.ehow.com/how_4449989_take-care-clown-fish.html
http://www.liveaquaria.com/.../aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm...
http://www.fishlore.com/Profiles-ClownFish.htm

And that's on the first page of google.

Those websites are not reliable for more than just one reason. Take temperature for example, I also found this:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0044848613006820

Those firefish were kept, breed and raised at 29 degrees celcius, though LiveAquaria states it at ~25: http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15 2971 173&pcatid=173.

Imagine seeing the tank in Summer rising above 25 degrees to like 27 or 28 degrees or something and panicking, when in fact they are cool (pun intended) with the temperature.

I'm not saying everything there is wrong, or that you can't keep fish if you stick to those guidelines (though I'm a bit worried with the firefish situation, not that I am sure), but it's very important to be extremely wary of those information.

But yeah, I guess it's exactly that - make sure you understand that these are just guidelines, not word of law. And that in fact, many of the information may actually be wrong. :)