Tank Journal Archive

[chimaera]

It's true that LiveAquaria provides broad guidelines that can be stretched/changed a bit. But the difference between keeping clowns in 10gallons vs 20gallons is a bit different to keeping a blue tang in 10 gallons vs 180 gallons.

Whatever you pick holes in, research or quote, there is not even a remote possibility that a blue tang will be happy in <10 gallons of water.

Then again, there is not even a remote possibility that a Betta is 'happy' in <1 gallon of water and yet countless thousands do it. However in their case it is ignorance rather than intention in the majority of cases. You seem to be doing this just to be different/controversial. Or if not, answer the question above - why? Do you enjoy seeing your blue tang bouncing around its tiny cage?

 

[Wrangy]

So you're now openly admitting that you don't care about the fish that you're keeping, well that explains a lot. Thank you for that clarification. Part of keeping animals is very largely to do with ensuring their happiness and health but you've said you don't care so I really hope you leave this hobby.

According to your papers 50L is okay, for just a pair of clowns, I'd agree with that too being it's only a pair of clowns (I'd also agree with a small pair of occy's in your tank but nothing more). The second thing is both of those are shorter lived experiments with only the clowns, none of your papers mention a goddamn blue tang being kept in 40 bloody litres of water!! At the same time 50L is still a lot bigger than what you have are are attempting to keep things in. Let alone with the addition of another clown and blue tang.

Temperature has nothing to do with the cruelty that you're putting your fish through. It's merely a distraction trying to say something about information on the internet that we're all VERY aware of. I challenge you to finding a SINGLE SCRAP of evidence, peer reviewed experiment, anecdotal proof, statement or anything anywhere on the internet that says in any way, shape or form that it's fine to keep a blue tang in such a small environment and that the fish will be happy. Go on do it! Prove us wrong! I can tell you right now you won't succeed in doing so because it's not right and just downright cruel.

 

[Azedenkae]

It's true that LiveAquaria provides broad guidelines that can be stretched/changed a bit. But the difference between keeping clowns in 10gallons vs 20gallons is a bit different to keeping a blue tang in 10 gallons vs 180 gallons.

Whatever you pick holes in, research or quote, there is not even a remote possibility that a blue tang will be happy in <10 gallons of water.

Then again, there is not even a remote possibility that a Betta is 'happy' in <1 gallon of water and yet countless thousands do it. However in their case it is ignorance rather than intention in the majority of cases. You seem to be doing this just to be different/controversial. Or if not, answer the question above - why? Do you enjoy seeing your blue tang bouncing around its tiny cage?

I never said the research states that specifically that 10 gallons is fine. Then again, it doesn't say it's not fine either.

How exactly do you know a fish is 'happy' in a particular size tank? Or more specifically, is 'unhappy' because of a particular size tank?

That's what I'm getting at.

@Wrangy : I do care about my fish. If I somehow stated that I don't, then I apologize for the misunderstanding, though I'm pretty sure I never said that.

Again though, I'm saying that the papers contradict the information hobbyists commonly use (such as that on LiveAquaria). That's the point of those papers.

As for the Blue Tang, which seems to be what you're on about now, like I said, I'll move it when I feel like it's too big for the tank.

I don't have any evidence to say exactly what I am doing is fine. I simply do not think it is a necessity to ONLY follow what others have actually recorded down.

Though I guess whilst we're at it (thanks for the idea Wrangy), I challenge everyone to find peer-reviewed literature - or in fact any study that conclusively says that what I am doing right now, at this moment, is disastrous. Something that is more than just experiences written by hobbyists, because otherwise I can find plenty of tank crashes that 'proves' we simply shouldn't have this hobby. :)

For example, that keeping a 5cm Blue Tang in this size tank, with these type of inhabitants, will cause say, serious malformation of its brain or something. Then I'll listen, because then it's obvious that it's bad. Or even if you can find something for the fish at a larger size, because then it'll be clear when to move them on.

Go on.

Because otherwise, though I don't have anything that specifically says this is okay, there is nothing to say that it isn't either. :)

 

[Buddy]

For example, that keeping a 5cm Blue Tang in this size tank, with these type of inhabitants, will cause say, serious malformation of its brain or something. Then I'll listen, because then it's obvious that it's bad. Or even if you can find something for the fish at a larger size, because then it'll be clear when to move them on.
. :)

The Blue tang will suffer from stunted growth. What happens is the fish continues to grow but its organs do not grow. Also because it doesn't have the swimming room it needs, its muscles will not grow properly.

 

[Azedenkae]

The Blue tang will suffer from stunted growth. What happens is the fish continues to grow but its organs do not grow. Also because it doesn't have the swimming room it needs, its muscles will not grow properly.

Hi Buddy (pun intended I guess?), like I said, it won't be there forever. Or even for too long. Do you have any

peer-reviewed literature - or in fact any study that conclusively says that what I am doing right now, at this moment, is disastrous. Something that is more than just experiences written by hobbyists

that states specifically at what point in time this will start happening?

 

[The Reefuge]

@Dr. Schell

 

[Buddy]

Good idea @The Reefuge
Hopefully the doc can clear it up :)

 

[Rob]

I am amused at this thread and enjoy the banter and hope from all sides nobody gets offended....

Its like me keeping an elephant in my backyard, it will live for a while no doubt about that but will it be stressed. In our case a Stressed fish = Dead Fish.

Fish being part of the food chain die in the wild anyway so I don't really care what you do but please do not try and justify keeping an elephant in your backyard, oh come to think about it, that's what your trying to do !

 

[Dr. Schell]

I will keep my response brief.......
In my opinion, the thank is not sufficiently sizable to keep tangs in a condition that I would consider stress free. As for cross breeding clowns, it this is a nail, I suggest that you make the tank a specimen tank and keep only the individuals you want to breed. The tank appears more suitable to keep fish which naturally have a small territory (ie. clowns and damsels) however, please do consider the welfare of the fish. If you have a nano and want it to be interesting, why not consider having it fish free and stocking it with inverts (ie. corals, crabs and other various species that are symbiotic with corals.

Unlike freshwater fish, most of the fish associated with the marine hobby are wild caught. As such you must remember that these organisms have come from an environment that is VAST. In instances of stress, fish are able to escape in the ocean. However, under similar situations in an aquarium, they are trapped. Please remember this fact.

 

[Dr. Schell]

Hi guys!

Thank for commenting on my update, I know that despite everything, you guys are just stating your true thoughts and simply just care about these companion of ours - which is why it's easy to get emotional.

But at the same time, that makes it hard to accept something... different. I know what I am doing is contradictory to what many believe, and what many would point to when they say 'do your research' and all that, e.g. websites such as LiveAquaria and all that.

Believe me, I did a lot of reading all over the net. In the end, a lot of it was inconsistent with what I learnt, or did not feel completely right. Relying then, on peer-reviewed scientific literature, I find that information is still incomplete nonetheless, though it definitely contradicted what the non-peer-reviewed literature stated.

Given that, I decided to follow my gut instincts, basing it on peer-reviewed literature where I can.

I will simply give a blanket response, mostly taken from my post on facebook. No point in retyping everything out:



Those websites are not reliable for more than just one reason. Take temperature for example, I also found this:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0044848613006820

Those firefish were kept, breed and raised at 29 degrees celcius, though LiveAquaria states it at ~25: http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15 2971 173&pcatid=173.

Imagine seeing the tank in Summer rising above 25 degrees to like 27 or 28 degrees or something and panicking, when in fact they are cool (pun intended) with the temperature.

I'm not saying everything there is wrong, or that you can't keep fish if you stick to those guidelines (though I'm a bit worried with the firefish situation, not that I am sure), but it's very important to be extremely wary of those information.

But yeah, I guess it's exactly that - make sure you understand that these are just guidelines, not word of law. And that in fact, many of the information may actually be wrong. :)

Although people on this forum may get emotional, I am of the understanding that they ALL appreciate that, with the exception of captive bred marine fish (currently constitutes a tiny portion of the fish available to hobiests) the fish have been caught from the ocean and put into aquariums. From a scientific viewpoint, fish have adapted to the VASTNESS of the ocean over exceptionally long periods of time. With this in mind, I think that it is unreasonable to expect that a species of fish such as a blue tang, or a yellow tang (both of which are very active and can potentially be very aggressive) will not be impacted by being placed into a relatively small aquarium (even as juveniles).

I think that perspective is the key to this discussion, and acknowledgement of the conditions that these species would be found in in nature.

 

[Dr. Schell]

Just as a side not to this discussion and in reference to hobbies to (speaking as a Scientist myself). Hobbyists in the keeping of marine fish are often more knowledgeable than scientists. Therefore statements that IGNORE the general options of most hobbyists may, and often will end in disaster.

 

[jayellul]

What you do/are doing is stupid and careless. End of story.

 

[bimbo]

Do you have any peer reviewed articles stating that it is ok to keep a blue tang in a 36l tank?

 

[holly]

The burden of proof is on you making the claim that it is okay. A scientist knows this.
Using a few papers that use different temperatures does not prove that the large, albeit poorly controlled hobbiest tank 'experiments' should be dismissed out of hand. The collective knowledge on this forum is a form of evidence, even considering that many of us are not sitting in a lab.

What science background do you have? @Dr. Schell points out the obvious: a natural environment is the one that fish will do best in.

If you're a true scientist at heart this would be more of a discussion rather than a defensive reaction using one paper as an example to discredit the whole Internet.

 

[suta42]

Hi Azdaneke,

Sorry to go off topic, but I'm a bit puzzled by this comment:

Returned the Yellow Tang because I just remember it was cyanide-caught

FWIW, this may be an issue with some countries, but it isn't in Hawaii...

 

[Azedenkae]

Quick response to everyone:

Rob: Yes that's true, keeping something in a too small of an area is bad. But when can we actually say that we're keeping 'an elephant in a backyard' and when can we say we're keeping 'an elephant in a park' (for example, of course).

You are saying that others are keeping their elephant in a park, whilst mine's in a backyard. But what if I'm having mine in a park, and others is in well, say a larger park?

Just because I keep mine in a smaller tank doesn't automatically relegate it to 'it's too small'.

Dr Schell: Point by point, yes I can keep inverts in my tank instead, but I don't go around thinking that people with tall tanks must keep Angels in there. Yes Angels may be more suited for tall tanks (because their reproductive behaviour involves tall columns of water, for example) doesn't mean people with tall tanks have to go with Angels. Yes, inverts can go in my tank great, but so do Clowns, and I like Clowns. So, why not.

If you are talking about the fact that marine fish have adapted to the vastness of the ocean over a long period of time, and it's ingrained, then that's genetics. That means that captive-bred fish also wants the vastness, according to what you say.

Don't forget, even a 10ft tank can't compare to a corner of the vastness of the ocean. Either way we're stuffing them into boxes that's much smaller than the vastness of the ocean.

I do not believe though, that hobbyists have more knowledge than scientists on keeping fish. Maybe in your experience it is so, but I work marine scientists, and I must say it is quite something else. But that's individual experiences and opinions as to who's more knowledgeable, so I am not going to discuss this much.

jayellul: Great argument mate. Totally convincing.

bimbo: Nope.

holly: Nope. Not my burden. Remember, I posted up a tank journal. You guys are saying what I am doing is wrong. So why is it my job to prove that I am right? Obviously I have to defend myself, but it is the burden of those who wish to prove I am wrong to... prove I am wrong. Whenever you guys come up with something, I'm merely responding to it. :) Which obviously constitutes of me defending myself. This is my tank journal after all, if you want a discussion, start a thread saying 'discussion on the effects of tank sizes on fish' or something, then I may come in and discuss stuff. :) Otherwise yeah, I am defending myself. Have to, cause I am being attacked (hate using that word, but anyways).

Oh and one paper? Wait wut? Pretty sure I posted more than one.

suta42: Oh it's an issue here in Australia as well. When a fish is cyanide caught, there's really not a lot of difference between sending them to Australia or elsewhere. They'll be weakened (in general), regardless of where they go.

Anyways, for any further questions, queries or comments not pertaining specifically to this first update, please post in my latest update (for now, it's the second) or pm me. Don't want to split arguments into multiple threads.

 

[suta42]

Guess you missed my point. Hawaiian collectors don't use cyanide to catch their fish. A yellow tang is a Hawaiian endemic and so, before or after being sent to Australia, cyanide capture is not an issue.

 

[Azedenkae]

Guess you missed my point. Hawaiian collectors don't use cyanide to catch their fish. A yellow tang is a Hawaiian endemic and so, before or after being sent to Australia, cyanide capture is not an issue.

And you know no Hawaiian collectors use cyanide how?

 

[suta42]

It's obvious you have plenty to learn in all areas of this hobby.

I'll bail out of your journal because you have no interest in furthering your skill as a hobbyist and your ignorance speaks for itself.

 

[cnidaria_chris]

no marine scientist you work with is worth their salt. You couldnt even ID a fish you used to do an experiment on witch in turn has made the work on that fish invalid.
Yes i do lab work ,Yes i do marine research, I am a research assistant in a big large scale long turn experiment so i have a fair idea what needs to go on.
sounds like you dont, if you took your tank to an ethics committee you would not be approved. Get a grip and take responsibility and do whats best for you animals in your care.
Its tools like you that causes our hobby to come under fire by other people.