Help - Ick ?

Discussion in 'Large Reef Tanks' started by Jacques Pels, Apr 3, 2018.

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  1. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Hi,
    we have been very cautious in adding new fish - only a few per batch every 3 weeks. Bought the Blue Tang 2 weeks ago. He was skinny, but had great colors and lively movement. We had him in quarantine for 2 weeks, and he was eating well. Placed him into the main tank last week. All went well, and he looked happy for the space, and has been eating well enough to have already started to put on weight again. The other day I notice, under lights in the evening , the dreaded white spots . We have the cleaner wrass, who is all over him, but by this morning,the spots are all over him.
    It would be impossible to try to catch him in this tank.
    What options are there ??
    Excuse the lousy pics.
    Tks
    Jac

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  2. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    Nearly all tangs will get the white spot at some stage in their life and a healthy fish will never die from it. I used to try and treat it and killed a lot of fish doing so but have never lost a fish I left in the tank and managed well.

    If you can make sure your temperatures are in a good range (preferably a bit higher than normal) and you are not getting large fluctuations, make sure he is not getting picked on, have good water quality, make sure he is getting plenty of good food and it may just be a wives tale or wishful thinking but I do add garlic to their food while they are going through this and at worst I don't believe it does any harm, at best I hope it does some good and believe the fish seem to take food more readily.

    If you really want to catch him, aquamedic sell a fish trap that does work well for your situation but I usually find the fish you want to catch will be the last one to venture in and it seems to take the best part of half a day to get the one you want.
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  3. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    Solid advice right there^^^
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  4. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Thanks NiCd and Sam.
    Frustrating as i had him in Q for all that time, where I could have treated him individually if need be - what do they say about the best laid plans of mice and men...:cum
    He is eating, competing for food well.
    Water parameters are decent and stable, and temp steady at between 27 and 28 as I have not activated the chillers as yet.
    How do i add garlic to their food ? Is there a liquid or granular galric I can buy ?
    Dont think its a wives tale - have heard it all too often, and it is good enough for us humans, so good enough for my fish.
    Hatched a batch of brine shrip, and put them in the spare Q tank. Bought Spirulina powder, Chickpea flour, Rice flour, bakes yeast and made a soup which I have been feeding them for 3 days now. Hope to get them to half adult size, then feed them some vitamins and garlic and feed the DT.
    I have been looking for where I can buy some Copipod and amphipod cultures to start a breeding tank for them in the sump, and inoculate the DT. Any ideas ?

    Jac
  5. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    almost any move of tank or environment is enough for a tang to break out in Ich. I don't believe it can be treated so that it never appears again, so don't be hard on yourself :)

    You can buy garlic soaks for food, not sure if it has any benefits - but it won't hurt.

    Sam
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  6. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    The temp sounds perfect, the warmer it is the quicker the life cycle and the higher the metabolism of the fish to fight it off.

    Sams spot on with it going to your DT (pun intended) just wait to you get an Achilles, the white spot will literally jump off other fish to get to it, show me an achillies that have been in captivity without getting the white spot at some stage and ill chug my skimmer cup.

    I used to use the brightwell garlic but in a pinch one time used the coles minced garlic in a jar and the fish had a massive fight over it and I have been using that ever since.

    Pods will make their way into your system through corals you buy, water changes with NSW etc, you would be hard pressed to keep them out of your system if you tried. Id suggest if you want to bring up their number quicker just add some green water mix, one the plus side this doubles as a coral food and you can use it instead of your soup for the brine.

    http://www.reefculture.com.au/Copepod-Diet-p/copdie.htm

    If you are set on buying some, some suggestions are below;

    https://www.exoticaquacultureaustralia.com/products/copedpods
    http://www.aquaticlivefood.com.au/shop/
    http://www.oceanarium.com.au/item.toy?iid=653555
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  7. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Thanks guys. Whenever i see the dreaded white spots, i get the heebee-geebees... and thought there was something I had missed or doen wrong. The blue tang was skinny in the shop, but do not see the real blue ones here, usually the yellow belly, so i got him as he was eating well.
    I will ask my wif to pick up some minced garlic and try.
    Green water ? In y fresh water breeding days, we made up Infasuria, with dried lettuce leaves left in water in the sun... how can I culture my own for marine ?
    I have the luxury of a separate fish room now and the extra Q tanks, so best to put them to good use, as nurseries for growning out Brine shrimp, and plan to get a culture of pods, part to seed the DT ( at night) and the other part, I will split off a section of the sump, after the skimmer compartment, where I will add rough coral rubble for the pods to breed. Then they will naturally over flow a bit each day into the suction return to the tank.

    thanks again

    Jac
  8. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    The short of it is you start off with a culture, add nutrients and ASW, have it placed under lights and harvest about a 1/3rd of the volume each day.

    There are plenty of diy options out there with your coke bottles lined up next to fluro tubes and what not.

    If you want to go a little more automated

    https://www.sewatec.de/grotech-phytobreeder-250mm-/-18-liter.html

    LGMA has a fibre optic one that is amazing as well but i suspect the price tag is equally as impressive.

    You can look at diverting some of the green water to rotifer reactors, brine reactors and pod tanks, which would give you amazing macrofauna and I have always dreamt of doing such a thing, but as to how much better results this would give you compared to an off the shelf, freeze dried product I have no idea.
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  9. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Great ideas.. thanks.
    I assume one of those links you sent earlier, will also sell a starter culture for the Phytoplankton / green water . Maye I can order pods and the culture for one delivery.

    Got some Garlic - mixed it with their usual pellets/mysis, and they loved it, although they steered away from the bigger garlic shreds, and ate the small ones.
    Thanks
  10. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    Aquatic food live has your various common stains
  11. Savage Henry

    Savage Henry Member

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    Keep in mind the white spot might go through several cycles before it dies out.

    Also, I'd even put the temp up to 30 degrees.

    Not sure what your tank has, but you could consider going hyposaline for a while. If you have corals, you could remove them to a separate tank while you treat the display tank.

    My tank got white spot some years ago after I brought home a bristle tooth tang. The Tang died very quickly, but I brought a pair of clowns and a coral beauty through it. The Coral Beauty got it really bad twice, through two different cycles until the white spot was finally gone.

    One other thing you can do in future is to practice hypo salinity in your quarantine tank. I always test the water from the LFS when I buy new fish, especially the salinity and have found a few shops that have their salinity as low as 1.020.
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  12. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Thanks Savage. As always in this hobby, there are so many variables. I have not added any corals as yet, awaiting installation of my lights, so I have some flexibility.
    I will probably go with NiCd's advise, and let it run its course, while feeding well.

    For future reference, is there a 'precautionary' measure I could take, while the fish are still in quarantine, to say add a treatment to the Q tank, the day before transferring them to the DT ? In fresh water, we could add Methyline Blue.. is there an option for marine.

    BTW - with the batch of fish i got the Blue Tang in, I also got a nice little Coral Beauty.. great color, ate right away. He was perfect for 2 days, and then the next morning, I came down and he was just dead.. . go figure.

    Jac
  13. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    Cyanide caught can be the issue with sudden deaths of recently acquired fish, but really it is hard to say.

    LFS and wholesalers have access to a lot of stuff we don't, but the common ways they treat as precautionary are copper in the water and running ~1.020.

    The theory of running slight hypo is that the fish immunity as actually better at these levels as there is less osmotic stress on the fish. Personally, I think that is a crock, the fish have evolved to be in the environment they have over billions of years.

    What I believe there may be some merit in that method is that the marine parasites are highly susceptible to osmatic changes and that they have a harder time living at those levels than the fish do.

    The issue with copper and other treatments that attack it whilst it is on the fish is that there are four stages of its life cycle that go on for 10-20 days depending on temperature. The parasite is only able to be treated in the beginning of the tomont stage before it completely becomes an enclosed cyst. it is this small window and really only then when you can treat it, which I have been told is something like a 12 hour window.

    I forget what it is called but there is an anti-malaria drug that is used in humans that when dissolved in the water can kill it in the bloodborne stage, which lasts around 7 days. I went to one of those crappy bulk billing Dr's to try and get this stating I was going to regional Bali, only to leave with 6 jabs in the arm and no script.

    Once your tank is fuller and things are a little less exciting to add to your main tank, perhaps look at running qt for three months to fatten the fish right up and make sure they have no ailments, but with the size tank you have and the number of fish in there at the moment, this is probably the least stressful place he could be. If you end up with a wipeout id be surprised but its probably the ideal time for it to happen out of any time.
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  14. Savage Henry

    Savage Henry Member

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    I totally agree with NiCd about the existing tank being the most appropriate place to treat the fish, especially a tang, as it will stress the fish out the least.

    I would be letting algae grow on the walls to give additional food and interest for the tang.

    Though, I really can't stress how good the hypo salinity route is. There's good info on the internet about it and a classic article. You need to go down to about 1.009 to get it working and even though you don't have corals, you're better of only having fish in the tank as the hypo salinity can kill invertebrates etc.
  15. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Tks NiCd - 6 jabs for the team... ouch, but we all endure worse at some stage
    for this hobby. :rage
    Is it Quinine you are thinking of for malaria ?
    It has taken all my patience, resolve and discipline to add only a few fish at a time. Even waiting 2 or 3 weeks while they sat in the Q tank, was a tester. With so much water sitting there, the kids drive me nuts to add another 20 new fish every time I bring them along to the LFS.
    I still have the single surviving Bengai cardinal in the Q tank, for 3 weeks now. I dare not release him to the DT, as he simply refuses to eat. The only way I have kept him alive, is to hatch batches of brine shrip, which he snaps up all day long. However when I then try to add a few pellets of dry food, or Mysis shrimp, he just ignores them. Lucky I bought the Quantum skimmer for the Q tank, and still do 30% water change every third day. I have now not fed him brine shrip for 3 days, in the hope of getting the little bugger so hungry he will venture a try of the other feed... lets see who outlasts or outsmarts the other. Stay tuned.

    Tks again
    Jac
  16. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Henry,
    since the blue tang has been in the DT, he seems far happier, and eating. The Tang Gang wiped out the Algae growing on the driftwood , and mow it all day long. I add shredded Nori on a string every day, which they all love, and I hope will keep them interested and happy until i get corals, with pods and all the usual tid bits of a maturing tank.
    I am hesitant to fool around with the water in the DT, even if i dont yet have corals.
    I may try the hypo salinity on on of the Q tanks, for the next batch of fish. give them 2 or 3 days in 'normal' water, then go hypo for say a week, as a precaution, and then gradually bring it back to main system parameters before release into the DT .
    Tks for your inputs mate
    Jac
  17. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    That is the stuff and you are right that isnt even in my top 10 painful moments of this hobby.

    WC Banggai are funny little things to get to feed, I have had much the same experience, I eventually get them on to frozen by mixing it with with the brine and then I eventually give up on that BS and yet they seem to kick on in the tank for years, I guess eating pods and shrimp larva. If you can pick up some tank raised ones, they are a lot less stressful to own.

    Other frozen foods to try is the fish eggs, pods, lobster eggs (not sure if they are still around) and krill, most of those are snapped up by things that can be a bit more finicky.

    Are you going to put in a school of chromis, anthias or similar? perhaps look at doing those as your next add to get some numbers, colour and movement into the tank
  18. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    NiCd, I already bought Krill and Bloodworms as an alternate, but still no great interest.
    I suspect you are right, they were WC, and the other 2 died after a few days. Have been able to kep this last one alive for nearly 3 weeks, so it is becomming a personal matter to get him through this.
    Man they get us well trained.
    Our first 3 fish were 3 green Chromis, who have grown astonishingly fast. Plan to add some more for schooling, and for sure some Anthias - was just not sure if my water is ready for them ??
    Jac
  19. Savage Henry

    Savage Henry Member

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    If you want to try an unconventional live food, try mosquito larvae. You can collect them yourself.

    Maybe not a long term food, but I have found them to entice anything to eat.
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  20. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    I have used them as well, not much can pass up those little wiggling bastards

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