Tank Journal Archive

[Jacques Pels]

A lot has been happening from all sides, and the aquarium too.

Final major issue to resolve is the lights, as it is pretty critical .
I have been researching, asking, and looking.
Thanks Sam, Dave and Fishy for your inputs. Much appreciated, really !

Halides - Sam is very much a Halides man, and can justify it with facts and results.
Fishy - is LED with those great Radion Gen 4 lights.
Lesley and others - is T5, and a combination of T5's and LED.

I am certainly not trying to be pedantic, but am trying to evaluate each fairly, and how applicable it is for my set up, given it has a few parameters that are a bit out of the ordinary.

My thoughts - to be ripped apart, discussed, debated, or commented on at will :-

Option 1.
Go all Radions - 8 units of the XR 30W.
Rationale :-
= all the same.
= Energy saving.
= No replacement bulb issue over time.
= All can be controlled from one source.
= assumption that they can achieve the penetration also for the 1200mm drop off, by setting at a higher ( 80~ 100%) setting.

Option 2.
Go Radions for the 900mm deep section, 2200mm long, 6 units, then use a 400 W 900mm long unit of Halide combo with T5 I saw, for the 800mm long drop off, across the width.
Rationale :-
= energy saving as most are LEDs.
= The Halides will for sure give the penetration needed for the 1200 drop off.
Concerns :-
= noticable difference in the look from the Radion length and the Halide length.
= control - how to set it up such that the control is easy and not a major daily event between the Radions and the Halide.
= compatibility of these 2 systems with any potential controller I may well get a few months down the line.

My thoughts in a nutshell - glad to hear your comments, suggestions and/or violent reactions.

Thanks
Jac

 

[Sam Parker]

Hi Jac,

if you are looking at radions, I'd lean towards going all radions to keep it consistent. Just a couple of things to consider and just to argue with my own logic:

1.
8 radions will be super expensive. $1,150ea is a total of over $9k. Plus you'd probably want the ecosmart live thing to make them all talk to the web for ease of controlling. Add in some brackets and wiring and you are looking at a $10k solution.

2.
8 Radions, assuming you'd go the XR30w G4 Pro still use a lot of power, 190w each which is still 1520w. The same as 6 250w halides. Granted, the radions won't be drawing 190w the entire light cycle, but it was worth pointing out that the power saving myth is kind of just that - a myth (or at least a stretch of reality)

3.
Even radion G4 pro's lose strength drastically at the 36 inch depth mark. Not many light sources will push further than 900mm to be honest though, other than a 400w halide which can go as deep as 48 inches, or a touch over 1200mm like you have.

Ok, so that is all the reasons why I wouldn't go LED. Now here are the reasons why I would go metal halide:

1.
On a tank your size, I'd look at running 6 metal halide fixtures. 4x250w units and 2x400w units. These can be purchased cheap, I'd look at kits like this on ebay and just swap the bulb out for the ever popular Radium 20k type (an additional $120 per fixture):
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Grow-Li...hash=item3a850e0cd5:m:mnRZRcYn5f9YY9v5rOhJzvg

2.
The 250w kits are $120ea and the 400w units are $130ea. Add an extra $120x6 for the best bulbs in the industry and your total cost is $1700.That is timers, hanging kits, fittings, bulbs, ballasts - the lot. A DRASTIC difference in cost to the LED option, even if you replace bulbs every 12 months.

3.
There is no doubt that this setup will give you enough light, which I could not confidently say about the $10k led option.

4.
There is no "programming". Set the timers and plug it in. Done. Be prepared for a learning curve in getting 8 radions to connect to each other, get a program you want and then working without any hiccups.

But hey, that's just me - I love radium halides :)

 

[Jacques Pels]

Sam,
you spell it out very convincingly mate ..
Your suggestions, with a very viable rationale.
I checked out the link you sent. They have both Magnetic and Digital ballast options.
What I had before as ballasts, were big bricks of units. They must have weighed 3~4 Kg each.
Considering I will need 8 of them, weight is a consideration, as the whole hood will raise ( as Lesley did) on an Actuator by 600mm. The actuator is rated for 1000 lbs, so say 400Kg, but I always prefer to err on the side of caution.
If however, the ballasts can be located under the tank, it will mean needing to extend the cables to reach from the hood to under the tank.
If the digital ballasts are used, I assume they are much lighter, and could be mounted in the hood.
If anything goes with MH from my experience, it is the Ballasts. Which one is best ?

Jac

 

[Jacques Pels]

Sam,
after your above post, you got me looking seriously into using Halides - never thought I would say that but your argument makes sense.

The ballasts I had before were very heavy, chunky, hot units. Are the new Digital ballasts OK or do you suggest the Magnetic ?
If you say I have to go with the heavy magnets ballasts, how long can the cable be between Halide unit and ballast, so I can see if I can locate them under the tank instead of in the hood. ?

The drawback with going all Halides is they are either on or off. Therefore I am thinking to go with a combo :
stay with the 2 x 400W Halides for the drop off.
Then instead of 4 x 250W for the 2200mm length of 900mm deep, to use maybe 2 x 250W halides, and add some LEDs in between, or 2 panels of T5 along the length, for general lighting.
My rationale is the Halides are there for the look, but main purpose if the quality of light for corals, and the LEDs / T5 are for mainly aesthetics and general lighting when the halides dont need to be on.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Tks
Jac

 

[Jacques Pels]

Guys,
I am at he point, that i think I will go with what Sam ha suggested, Halides, but combine them with either LEDs or T5s.
I have done a simple sketch to show the tank, and added a side on view, to illustrate.
As it is I have 1 x 400W Halide at the end of the tank, over the 1200mm drop off.
Then either 2 or 4 Halides of 250W for the long section of 2200mm with 900mm depth.
I am trying o figure out which combination of lights to use - LED or T5, how many and where.
I would appreciate your thoughts and inputs.

Tks
Jac

 

[Sam Parker]

Hey Jac,

sorry I missed your questions till now (when I thought I'd check in and see how you went)

I have a combo of both magnetic and digital ballasts, I prefer the magnetic (heavy) ones myself - but they seem to be much of a muchness. If weight of ballast is a concern, mount them in the roof? You're still going to have one power lead run to the light regardless of where the ballast is (either power to ballast, or cord from ballast to bulb).

I like your layout of 400w over the deep end and 250w over the rest. From there, add led's or t5's to suit your aesthetic purposes. If you are looking to go T5's, let me know as I can put you onto a retailer who has a large collection of 2ft and 3ft t5 fittings that are perfect for fitting into a lighting hood. Plus they are priced incredibly CHEAP.

 

[Jacques Pels]

Sam,
got no responses - thought it was something I said Honey :-)
Ballasts - I had to add extra Trusses already, to take the actuator/rails sitting in the ceiling to lift the whole hood. I would prefer to err on the side of caution, and not add any more weight. That is why I was thinking to use the magnetic ballasts, if you say they are reliable - less weight and less heat.
The power for the Hood/lights will not come from the ceiling, as originally planned. We added a dry stand pipe in the center, so the wires will run from below the stand, up to the hood/lights. Thats why I asked if you happen to know if there is a limit to the length of wire/cable allowed between ballast and lamp ?
The Giessman Dimitec T5 lights of Lesley look fantastic, and the price tag to match. If i had what many now do, and have the lights hanging exposed atop the tank, I would go that way. In my case, the lights will be hidden in the hood, so the sleek modern lines are wasted on me. Pearls before the swine :-)
I have written to Lesley with the lighting concept, and if she will sell some of the lights individually, but have not heard back yet.
I would appreciate your contact for the T5s.
The top right tank in the Quarantine row, is not a Q tank,but is 800 x 600 and plumbed into the main return line of the tank, so shares tank water. The idea being, the Q tanks are only intended for short term use, and are difficult to control/maintain water quality, since I cant get a skimmer into them and just got internal filters, with a built in UV light. (Not thrilled with thm to be frank - add heat so I got some small fans mounted on the edge of each Q tank, which helps reduce temp by about 1,5 Degrees.)
The system tank, therefore uses main tank water, so I can grow frags and possibly section of a part of it, to hold a breeding pair of clowns or make the kids happy and get some specialty pets - they want Sea Horses and Mandarines. :-)
I will need a light for this tank also, that will not be too big a difference to the main tank for the corals when moved from there to DT. The Q row is only 400 mm deep, so what light would you suggest ?
Sorry for bombarding you with these questions.

Jac

 

[Sam Parker]

Magnetic ballasts - heavy
Digital Ballasts - light

I'd have thought it would be easier to mount in the roof than it would in the canopy that is to be motorised, but that's your call.

If you send DeerPark Aquarium a message on facebook, or call them and ask about some 2ft or 3ft t5 fittings to retrofit into a canopy - they will look after you.

 

[Jacques Pels]

Thanks Sam. We dont want to have all sorts of cables hanging from the ceiling to the hood - only the 4 SS cables to lift the hood.
Ok, I will opt for the digital ballasts, and contact DeerPark for lights.
Thanks
Jac

 

[Sam Parker]

That's what I mean though Jac, no matter where you put the ballasts - you'll still need a cable going to the light. I guess if you had a single power lead go to the hood, you could run all the ballasts off that inside the hood which would reduce your power cables out of the hood to one?

 

[Jacques Pels]

Sam,
we have the dry stand pipe, which is to allow for power cables from below the tank, in the cabinet, to the hood. If I now will go with the digital ballats, weight will not be the issue, so you are right, I could bring just one cable from below, thru dry pipe, to the hood, and connect all digital ballasts.
I called Dave at Deer Park yesterday. Briefly explain our spec, and your suggestion re Halides.
He agreed Halides give the best light and penetration for a tank this deep. However, he thinks the 400W at the drop off (1200mm deep) is not going to be enough, and should be 1000W, and 400W instead of 250W for the 900mm deep section.
I think this may be overkill, as I dont plan or need to grow SPS at the drop off. It could become a low-light garden. Being that deep/low, I would love to put 2 nice clams, Maxima or Crocea there, as looking down on them shows their best coloration. If the 400W Halide cannot handle it, we can always either change the bulb to a 1000W, or add a "spotlight" like a Kessler Blue Tuna or the likes . ?

On the general lighting he suggested rather than T5s, to go LED for the depths we are talking about. He recommended the Hydra 52. I asked his opinion on the Radions 30W Gen 4 - he said Ecotech now owns Aqua Illumina ( Hydra), so in essence they are the same, but the Radions are 30% more expensive. On controls - he said the Hydra is the easiest and best on controls, with easy inter-connection of a series.
I would need at least 6 of them, along with the Ha;ides, although he suggested I should go 8 to 10.
They cost $ 760 each, so this can get costly in a hurry, so I want to make sure it is the right thing, and not find out in 2 months, that I screwed up, and have 6~10 second hand Hydras to try and sell for second hand prices. :-(

BTW - when I logged on today, I saw the post on the Hydra 26 problems with Internet connection dropping.. wonder if this is solvable or a big issue to warn against the Hydra ?

Wish you were just down the road or somewhere on the Gold Coast, and I could invite you to drop in, peddle you with a stiff single malt, and show you the set up to date. :-)
Your thoughts ??

Jac

 

[Sam Parker]

Hi Jac,

ah yes, the standpipe - I forgot! Yes ok, that will work fine and be very neat.

Ok yeah fair enough, whilst I normally agree with everything Dave says - I'd stick with 250w and 400w for now. Easy and cheap to change later should your tank take off with SPS and start to need more light.

I'd run with just the halides for now, easy to add LED or T5 later if you wish. I don't think you'd need anywhere near that many led's, personally I wouldn't use any LED - just halide.

I'm not down the road, but flights are quick and cheap :)

 

[Jacques Pels]

Hahaha... but may just do that ..

Has this site been down for the last 2 days again ? I could not get access, and got an error message. Same thing happened 2 weeks ago ??
Was just able to log on now, and saw your reply. Thanks.
If I go all and only Halides, it brings me full circle to lights for general lighting, since Halides are either on or off. So I need some T5 or LED one way or the other.
I just comes down to which, and how many.
Got a facebook message from Dave yesterday, asking if i have drawings and image, and he will make a suggestion. I sent him the same sketch and image I posted here, and will follow up on Monday.

The LFS released the fish from Quarantine yesterday, and gave me a call. Its been nearly 3 weeks since the last batch were introduced, so I allow myself to get a few. They got a nice (real) Blue Tang, not the Yellow Belly Blue Tang, so i snapped him up, 3 Bengaii, 2 Banana Wrass, a nice Coral Beauty, and what he called a "Diana Wrass".. I am not sure what is really is.. ?
Dispite everything to the contradictory, these times make me feel like a kid in a candy store.. :p
Have a great weekend.
Jac

 

[Sam Parker]

It will always come back to what you want to do.

Only advice I can give you is to not skimp, a tank this size is going to cost a lot in all facets and cutting corners (like the skimmer!!) will only give you bad results and you’ll just buy the component twice.

 

[Jacques Pels]

Sam,
hear you. The debate on lights, is nothing to do with skimping - just to gather the facts, from knowledgable aquarists, not each brands spiel, and see how their inputs apply to my set up.After what this tank has already cost me, it would be nuts to skimp now.
Skimmer - i thought i noticed a 'polite' under-enthusiasm when I mentioned I got the MS.. :-) The plan had been to get a JNS, but he turned up with the MS, and as you know I am not happy, and still trying to get it to work with both pumps running. The Red Devil pumps seem great, but I suspect they are over-spec for this skimmer unit. I would return it today if I could !
I am asking and researching on the lights, to avoid exactly this problem.

Let you know what Dave comes back with.

Jac

 

[Sam Parker]

Yeah I would have looked at either a large deltec, royal exclusive or even a MRC twisted skimmer for a tank this size. Not cheap, but is a critical component to the tanks success.

Luckily, whilst lighting is as important, it can be a lot cheaper to do right.

 

[amashun]

I was using MH/T5 combo in the pass and they were pretty nice setup. recently i'm setting up a tank after a long break and looking for new light.

After doing some research about lighting and i was convinced to use MH for my new tank after seeing this video:

In regards to ballast, yes, i have also used M80 (the heavy one) and E-ballast. Tullio explained pretty well in that video about the heat vs light..etc so i'm more convinced to use E-ballast and purchased this:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Lumatek...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
this can be use for both 250W and 400W so for me is a big win because i will be setting up an SPS only tank. (too bad there is no dealer to sell Tullio light, otherwise i would have buy one from him, his new MH light generate no heat at all)

Now, in regards to skimmer, have you though on ATB skimmer? i have used them in the pass and they are truly the best bang of buck skimmer. what i found is that most skimmers on the market they are all over rated for what they can do.

 

[Jacques Pels]

I was using MH/T5 combo in the pass and they were pretty nice setup. recently i'm setting up a tank after a long break and looking for new light.

After doing some research about lighting and i was convinced to use MH for my new tank after seeing this video:

In regards to ballast, yes, i have also used M80 (the heavy one) and E-ballast. Tullio explained pretty well in that video about the heat vs light..etc so i'm more convinced to use E-ballast and purchased this:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Lumatek-Digital-Dimmable-Ballast-400W-240V-SE-HPS-MH/162293370703?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
this can be use for both 250W and 400W so for me is a big win because i will be setting up an SPS only tank. (too bad there is no dealer to sell Tullio light, otherwise i would have buy one from him, his new MH light generate no heat at all)

Now, in regards to skimmer, have you though on ATB skimmer? i have used them in the pass and they are truly the best bang of buck skimmer. what i found is that most skimmers on the market they are all over rated for what they can do.

Thanks Amashun,
I watched the Tullio video - very interesting, and chimes with what Sam has been recommending re MH.
So do i understand you correctly, you bought the Lumatek digital ballasts and will buy just a generic reflector and bulb ?

Jac

 

[Jacques Pels]

Yeah I would have looked at either a large deltec, royal exclusive or even a MRC twisted skimmer for a tank this size. Not cheap, but is a critical component to the tanks success.

Luckily, whilst lighting is as important, it can be a lot cheaper to do right.

Sam,
the Tullio video was interesting, and confirmed the direction I am leaning towards, re using MH. That leaves me with the solution for the general lighting. I had not received a reply to my mail to Lesley of 2 weeks ago, so I called her - just as well, the mail had gone to her Junk folder.
She now replied, and has offered a reduced price, but I would need to take all 6 of the Geissmann and 5 Pulsar LEDs. To be frank, that is too many lights, considering I have now been convinced to use MH as the main punch lighting.
An option may be to use the 400W MH at the deep end, then another 250W at the other end, and 2 x 250W ( L + R) in the middle. Then use 4 of the 1200mm long Geissmann LEDs, lengthwise down the tank. Your thoughts ??

She also said she still has her Deltec sc3070 skimmer. After what I paid for the MS, which I am not at all happy with, it is a big hit to spend the same again for her Deltec, but then I will at least have a decent skimmer. ( despite all the efforts to avoid this sort of scenario, it still happens :eek )
Very inclined to get her skimmer, because if I get the lights sorted and up, i can add my first few corals, and I want to be sure we can handle the bio-load, and I just dont have that confidence with the MS.

Sorry to keep picking your brain, but I recognize your knowledge and experience.

Tks
Jac

 

[amashun]

Thanks Amashun,
I watched the Tullio video - very interesting, and chimes with what Sam has been recommending re MH.
So do i understand you correctly, you bought the Lumatek digital ballasts and will buy just a generic reflector and bulb ?

Jac

Hi Jac, yes, i already bought a Giesemann spectra from US and it is being shipped. hopefully i will receive it next week sometime. the spectra use external ballast for the MH so using digital ballast would be best suit for what i need.

in regards to your MH, you can use the lumenarc reflectors like Sam uses, a proper diamond reflector should cover 2ft x 2ft area...

HTH