Reef Discussion

[lorby]

Hey guys! After reading this thread by @OSCAR85 it got me curious! Reef salt is pretty darn expensive, and any money I could save while hopefully not negatively affecting my livestock in any way is certainly worth a look in! So on the way home this afternoon I picked up a 25kg bag from Bunnings for $7.15.


Initial look
First up, the salt itself is very coarse and the grains are large.



Mixing it was definitely more time consuming than my standard reef salt (red sea), but certainly not impossible.




Testing

I'll start with a few guidelines for my testing:

• All mixing is done with RODI water. Resin and cartridges recently changed. <10 TDS, 0 phos, 0 nitrate.
• All equipment and test kits were cleaned with RODI water before and in between tests
• Salts were matched to a 1.025-1.026 salinity.

The 3 candidates for testing.

1. Sunray Pool salt
2. Red sea salt
3. NSW from Kellyville pets




Test 1. PH
Kits: Aqua one digital PH pen & API high range PH

1. 6.0 on the pen (Yes you read that correctly) & Below the lowest reading on the API kit.




2. 8.2 on the pen. ~8.3 on the API




3. 7.7 on the pen ~8.1 on the API




Test 2. Copper.
Kit: API Copper
1. 0ppm

2. 0ppm

3. 0ppm

I won't add pics for all 3, as they were just like this one.



To make sure the test kit was at least semi functioning. a few drops of "Snail rid" was added to the tube.



Test 3. Nitrate
Kit: Salifert

1. 0ppm





2. 0ppm




3. 0-1ppm. Very hard to see on the camera but it did have the slightest pink tinge to the water




Test 4. Phosphate
Kit: Hanna Low range phosphate egg
1. 0.00


2. 0.00
No pic for this one. I've tested it previously @ 0.00 and these reagents are expensive!

3. 0.07


Test 5. Alkalinity
Kit: Red sea alkalinity pro

1. Too low to read. Changed on first drop


2. 0.55ml used. Roughly 7.7dKH


3. 0.45ml used. Roughly 6.3dKh


1.1 To confirm the test of the pool salt. I added 5ml of Red sea reef foundation buffer supplement and retested. This time it used 0.55ml with a rough dKH of 7.7




Test 6. Calcium
Kit: Salifert

1. < 0.5ml used. <50ppm


2. 0.8ml used. ~400ppm


3. 0.85ml used. ~430ppm


1.1. To make sure I wasn't imagining it. Re ran the first test. Same result, <0.5ml used.




Conclusion

Now, I'm no chemist, but this salt appears somewhat incomplete for use in aquariums. It's missing one of the most important ingredients in ocean water at the bare minimum. It has the sodium chloride content, there's no doubting that :p. But absolutely zilch calcium.

I wish I had a magnesium test kit (on the to buy list) or any other test kits actually! I would hazard a guess that not having calcium might mean that it doesn't have magnesium, potassium and any other of the important reef ingredients.

I honestly thought that when you evaporated seawater and was left with the salt you would have all of the contents of that seawater ready to harvest. After all, the evaporation should only remove the H2O?? I'm no expert at this stuff but is that correct? Perhaps sunray were not truthful about it being only evaporated sea salt. Wouldn't you have to filter it somehow to remove the extras normally found in seawater?

So after all that, I'm left with more questions than answers! But definitely, as it is, it needs work to be suitable for a reef tank. How much work I'm not really sure...

 

[MagicJ]

What a great review - thanks for the time and effort you have put into this :worship

So, it appears that some elements are not re-constituted just by adding water?

@holly, we need the help of a chemist ;)

 

[mscott]

Red seas abc + would be a good additive perhaps?

 

[Sam Parker]

Amazing review, post (and my hat) tipped!

 

[ezza]

Red seas abc + would be a good additive perhaps?

It would make the cost of water changes go up if the original purpose is to take advantage of a less expensive alternative.

I guess the mineral content will vary depending on which sea the salt comes from. Calcium comes from the ground/rocks/sand etc, if the sea is on a base of some kind of mud thing then maybe that accounts for the dif. This is why Red Sea salt is spruiked as the best. Because the Red Sea is a real and actual marine environment such as that which we wish to replicate. It's why I buy pink salt from the Murray Darling instead of white saxa iodised dust. In theory it contains more beneficial minerals naturally occurring in the region.

 

[OSCAR85]

Hey guys! After reading this thread by @OSCAR85 it got me curious! Reef salt is pretty darn expensive, and any money I could save while hopefully not negatively affecting my livestock in any way is certainly worth a look in! So on the way home this afternoon I picked up a 25kg bag from Bunnings for $7.15.


Initial look
First up, the salt itself is very coarse and the grains are large.

View attachment 40389

Mixing it was definitely more time consuming than my standard reef salt (red sea), but certainly not impossible.

View attachment 40390


Testing

I'll start with a few guidelines for my testing:

• All mixing is done with RODI water. Resin and cartridges recently changed. <10 TDS, 0 phos, 0 nitrate.
• All equipment and test kits were cleaned with RODI water before and in between tests
• Salts were matched to a 1.025-1.026 salinity.

The 3 candidates for testing.

1. Sunray Pool salt
2. Red sea salt
3. NSW from Kellyville pets

View attachment 40391


Test 1. PH
Kits: Aqua one digital PH pen & API high range PH

1. 6.0 on the pen (Yes you read that correctly) & Below the lowest reading on the API kit.
View attachment 40392

View attachment 40393

2. 8.2 on the pen. ~8.3 on the API
View attachment 40394

View attachment 40395

3. 7.7 on the pen ~8.1 on the API
View attachment 40396

View attachment 40397

Test 2. Copper.
Kit: API Copper
1. 0ppm

2. 0ppm

3. 0ppm

I won't add pics for all 3, as they were just like this one.

View attachment 40398

To make sure the test kit was at least semi functioning. a few drops of "Snail rid" was added to the tube.

View attachment 40399

Test 3. Nitrate
Kit: Salifert

1. 0ppm
View attachment 40400

View attachment 40401


2. 0ppm
View attachment 40402

View attachment 40403

3. 0-1ppm. Very hard to see on the camera but it did have the slightest pink tinge to the water
View attachment 40404

View attachment 40405

Test 4. Phosphate
Kit: Hanna Low range phosphate egg
1. 0.00
View attachment 40406

2. 0.00
No pic for this one. I've tested it previously @ 0.00 and these reagents are expensive!

3. 0.07
View attachment 40407

Test 5. Alkalinity
Kit: Red sea alkalinity pro

1. Too low to read. Changed on first drop
View attachment 40408

2. 0.55ml used. Roughly 7.7dKH
View attachment 40409

3. 0.45ml used. Roughly 6.3dKh
View attachment 40410

1.1 To confirm the test of the pool salt. I added 5ml of Red sea reef foundation buffer supplement and retested. This time it used 0.55ml with a rough dKH of 7.7
View attachment 40411

View attachment 40412

Test 6. Calcium
Kit: Salifert

1. < 0.5ml used. <50ppm
View attachment 40413

2. 0.8ml used. ~400ppm
View attachment 40414

3. 0.85ml used. ~430ppm
View attachment 40415

1.1. To make sure I wasn't imagining it. Re ran the first test. Same result, <0.5ml used.
View attachment 40416



Conclusion

Now, I'm no chemist, but this salt appears somewhat incomplete for use in aquariums. It's missing one of the most important ingredients in ocean water at the bare minimum. It has the sodium chloride content, there's no doubting that :p. But absolutely zilch calcium.

I wish I had a magnesium test kit (on the to buy list) or any other test kits actually! I would hazard a guess that not having calcium might mean that it doesn't have magnesium, potassium and any other of the important reef ingredients.

I honestly thought that when you evaporated seawater and was left with the salt you would have all of the contents of that seawater ready to harvest. After all, the evaporation should only remove the H2O?? I'm no expert at this stuff but is that correct? Perhaps sunray were not truthful about it being only evaporated sea salt. Wouldn't you have to filter it somehow to remove the extras normally found in seawater?

So after all that, I'm left with more questions than answers! But definitely, as it is, it needs work to be suitable for a reef tank. How much work I'm not really sure...

Amazing work. Thanks so much for taking the time to do that for all of us!

 

[mscott]

It would make the cost of water changes go up if the original purpose is to take advantage of a less expensive alternative.

With 1kg doing about 1000l of water, at about 20-30 buks a kg. You are still less than half the price of a bucket of pre-mix

 

[lorby]

Thanks for all the love guys! Was certainly a long night, but I think it was definitely worth investigating!

I'm still curious as to where they could possibly get salt water from with little to no calcium content? Or if it indeed doesn't reconstitute in the water, why don't I have any floaties?

The abc+ certainly looks interesting for repopulating the water, as it looks to have hopefully all the missing bits. That 1kg to 1000litre ratio though, is that to bring it back from 0 or just to buffer an only slightly lower number?

 

[Trentwalsh]

Salts come from a number of different places, lots derived from the earth and volcanis regions and such, not all salt comes from collected seawater,good review was lovely to read,

 

[Oceanarium]

Red seas abc + would be a good additive perhaps?

Expensive and only fundamental elements.

When I made up the mix it included expensive ingredients like fluoride, boron etc. thing not easily tested for. I would suggest to go with a purer grade salt of known contents like the water softner and then use the Moe recipe. It brought Ca,mg, alk everything up to standard.

23.98 g sodium chloride
5.029 g magnesium chloride
4.01 g sodium sulfate
1.14 g calcium chloride
0.699 g potassium chloride
0.172 g sodium bicarbonate
0.100 g potassium bromide
0.0254 g boric acid
0.0143 g strontium chloride
0.0029 g sodium fluoride
Water to 1 kg total weight.

 

[Oceanarium]

Thanks for all the love guys! Was certainly a long night, but I think it was definitely worth investigating!

I'm still curious as to where they could possibly get salt water from with little to no calcium content? Or if it indeed doesn't reconstitute in the water, why don't I have any floaties?

The abc+ certainly looks interesting for repopulating the water, as it looks to have hopefully all the missing bits. That 1kg to 1000litre ratio though, is that to bring it back from 0 or just to buffer an only slightly lower number?

Some of what i read yesterday indicated that the differing elements may drop out of solution at differing times during the evaporation and concentrating process so it may be possible for them to de scale the salt so it wont cause issues on a pool edge. When you think about it is you dont want a pool salt that going to leave residues as it evaps.

 

[mscott]

Thanks for all the love guys! Was certainly a long night, but I think it was definitely worth investigating!

I'm still curious as to where they could possibly get salt water from with little to no calcium content? Or if it indeed doesn't reconstitute in the water, why don't I have any floaties?

The abc+ certainly looks interesting for repopulating the water, as it looks to have hopefully all the missing bits. That 1kg to 1000litre ratio though, is that to bring it back from 0 or just to buffer an only slightly lower number?

Ahhh I'm not sure. I'll have a closer look at the container later today. I only had a quick look last night as turning my bedroom lights on affect the first lol

 

[slin1977]

Awesome stuff mate. Thanks for doing the experiments.

 

[holly]

Awesome work, saved me the trouble! I'll have a chat to the chemist at 3:30 when he gets home.
I wonder what salt IS in the mix, or if the calcium and alk are just not reconstituting back into the water.....
Having coraline algae build up on your pool would probably not be ideal.

 

[Elias]

.

 

[Aspidites]

Mint review, however..... Red Sea salt is not an evaporated salt. The first step is partial evaportation from what I remember, then chemists add a heck of alot of the other major and minor elemets that go into it(most of them sourced naturally). Finally they add further elements by washing the salt in salt water! It is then dried and packaged and sold at enormous prices! ;-)

 

[lorby]

You are correct, I misread the red sea webpage. It is only 72% naturally harvested from the red sea and the other 28% are modifiers. So definitely not natural sea salt.

I emailed Cheetham salt yesterday to see what's going on. And this is the response

Correct there will be little magnesium calcium or other impurities in the salt as the salt is harvested from the floor of the pond and then stacked and left for an undefined period of time.
The salt will be subject to weathering, including being rained on (freshwater), which takes out the remainder of the calcium that has not dropped out in the earlier production process (the specific gravity of the contaminants are lower than the sodium).

Also attached a specifications sheet. Which I have uploaded here.

Lists calcium as max 1000mg/kg. Which would be 1000ppm I believe. So they look to have possibly vastly different levels depending on when it was harvested. Perhaps this is a bag that was taken from the top of the pile and therefore has nearly nothing but salt.

Very interestiong though, that it can lose nearly all of its metal content simply from siting there and being rained on.

edit: It's also interesting that the email response mentions an earlier production process but doesn't specifiy what it is. Unless he's referring to the pond collection process and it's just easier to pull the salt out and leave the rest?

 

[Sam Parker]

I'd love to see a bag that has 1000ppm Calcium!!!

 

[holly]

Chemist Jeremy said as much - ca, mag etc would evaporate at different rates. If they just take the top layers that form without waiting for all the water to evaporate then you're left with the top layer which would test as seen.

So if you would want to use this stuff, you'd have to mix it up, test for the major elements, adjust accordingly with things like bulk calcium crystals etc and add a good dollop of trace to get your minor essentials in there. Not exact like the expensive stuff but perhaps a product for the average budget reefer.

 

[lorby]

Thanks again for all the love everyone! :).

Thanks for talking to the chemist Holly! That's what I feared about this salt, different batches could be vastly different depending on where in the pile it came from! I guess on the bright side it does appear to be reasonably pure salt!

I'm too much of a newb to risk missing out on some elements in the salt. I was having a look at the LFS and there's your abc+ which has a lot of the major elements, like calcium magnesium, strontium etc. And there was another red sea container called coral colors, which seemed to have a lot of more minor elements (31 trace elements according to the red sea site). I would guess if you added both of these products to the basic salt you would end up with something pretty similar to the red sea salt you would buy in the buckets? Althought without a way of testing the minor elements it would be a bit of a guessing game!

I'd still be concerned after all that though, that something could be missing which long term might be detrimental. Not to mention after adding all those extras the price is a bit higher than originally anticipated :P haha.