New To Reefing

elijahyar

Member
Aug 22, 2015
3
0
New To Marine...
hey everyone! Been lurking/stalking for a while and decided to join. I'm at least a few months off from any kind of purchase, but would like advice on a first marine set-up. I used to breed tanganyikan cichlids (cyathopharynx etc.)but moved from mel- adl and couldn't bring the tanks etc. along. I don't wanna go nano so advice would be welcome!! Thanks in advance!
 

Buddy

Member
Mar 13, 2012
3,142
1,526
:welcome
Usually the bigger the tank, the more time you have to react if any parameters change for the worse. But saying that, I started off with a 80L 2 foot tank and that went really well.
A 3x2x2 would probably be a good start if it is suitable and affordable.
The thing you will probably hear the most is "Take things slowly!"
 

Rob

Member
Apr 26, 2012
743
424
Whats your budget ?
Are you considering making your own stand ?

My tips:
I strongly suggest as your a little while off to be on the look out to buy second hand equipment. Once you have a plan on size of the tank.

I bought everything new to start with however over the years as Ive upgraded I now have 2nd hand lights, skimmer and stream pumps. The only hardware I would buy new is heater, return pump and a tank.
 
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ReeferRob

Solidarité
Oct 22, 2014
2,661
931
Bel Air
Secondhand is great, leaves heaps more money to buy livestock. I'm more impressed with how cheap you can build a system than by how much you spent.
 

elijahyar

Member
Aug 22, 2015
3
0
hey everyone! Been lurking/stalking for a while and decided to join. I'm at least a few months off from any kind of purchase, but would like advice on a first marine set-up. I used to breed tanganyikan cichlids (cyathopharynx etc.)but moved from mel- adl and couldn't bring the tanks etc. along. I don't wanna go nano so advice would be welcome!! Thanks in advance!
 

elijahyar

Member
Aug 22, 2015
3
0
Wow you guys are quick!! I realistically have around $1000 for initial setup, and being in Adelaide 2nd hand is not always quick or cheap to come by! From my experience bigger is easier to keep water parameters in check, but bigger volume is bigger $ especially it seems in reef scenarios! Any words of wisdom? Is there an all in one that is viable?
 
$1000 budget will mean you need to go small and go second hand.
The tank ends up being a small proportion of the total cost, so don't go spending $800 on the tank & stand.

If this tank is a stepping stone to a bigger tank I'd get a decent RO/DI unit that you can use for the second tank too. This will be a few hundred dollars.

Some of the other more expensive items are lights and a skimmer.
 

Webb

Member
Sep 21, 2014
26
13
Lights are definitely going to cost, even 2nd hand that'll easily chew up half your budget if not more pending on size of tank.
I made do with T5's and DIY LED setup to compliment but thats only because I'm handy with a soldering iron. I got a AI prime for a nano recently and wouldn't look back. Automatic timing and precise colour control really makes a marine tank that much more enjoyable.
From the research when looking at a new tank, best advice I found was to really pick the space you're going to have the tank. Where there's no direct sunlight (although enough light when you need it so you can plug things in, move stuff about), easy access to power and where water spillage isn't going to be a bit problem (you WILL spill water, just accept it and plan around that).
This will help you pick the size of your tank more than anything. Then start looking at what you'll need to support that size.
Make a check list of what you NEED, then a list of what you want.
Check gumtree, ebay, the usual auction/2nd hand sites regularly for when things come up that you NEED, and buy when it comes up. Try not to buy stuff you don't absolutely need (anyone looking for a cheap calcium reactor btw? :P).
First tank cost more than I'd like to admit for a tiny 1" cube (thanks mostly to the mrs getting ripped off on the initial setup).
Second setup I had the tank, sump, weir/overflow, stand, skimmer, backup HOB skimmer, marinepure media, heater, return pump, ATO, automatic dosing pump, wavemaker, sump light and AI prime all done for <$900, $360 was on the AI (with tank stand) itself.
 
Welcome to the nuthouse.o_0

My best advice is to avoid wasting money. This hobby is expensive enough without doing that. That means research, ask questions, research and ask some more. Eg my first skimmer, recommended by a LFS was a wooden air stone job - a total waste of money as it achieved nothing at all.

Have a really good think about what you want and why. Also never impulse buy, if you miss out then you weren't meant to have it. I've had a few marine tanks and this last incarnation, I wanted as diverse a micro-ecology as I could get so I researched it, made a plan and (pretty much) stuck to it. My current tank was fully set up and then run for 5 months without lights to cut down algae growth and save power. During the first 4 months the biggest thing I introduced were bristleworms, the following month some turbo snails, etc.

Also as the saying goes "only bad things happen quickly in this hobby" and that is very true. Don't rush to put livestock in, don't add too much at once and don't add things too close together. If you don't happen to know why those three things are important then you are not ready for a tank but you are ready for more research.

Nearly everyone here is very helpful so ask away.

Some things you MUST understand before wetting your first tank are:
  • The cycling process and the chemistry of it. waste>ammonia>nitrites>nitrates>expulsion.
  • How one parameter effects another, eg ph, magnesium, alkilinity, etc. Otherwise you'll be chasing your own tail.

I also strongly recommend this article by one of the real experts in this hobby.
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Here is a dicussion excerpt by Eric Borneman on the topic of a mature system.
Courtesy of Reefcentral.

Tank maturity seems to be even more of an issue without the sand bed. The sand bed just takes some time to get enough nutrients in it to sustain populations and stratify into somewhat stable communities and become functional. So, here's the tank reason, and then I'll blow into some ecology for you. When you get a tank, you start with no populations of anything. You get live rock to form the basis of the biodiversity - and remember that virtually everything is moderated by bacteria and photosynthesis in our tanks. So liverock is the substrate for all these processes, and also has a lot of life on it. How much depends on a lot of things.

Mostly, marine animals and plants don’t like to be out of water for a day at a time...much less the many days to sometimes a week that often happens. So, assuming you are not using existing rock from a tank, or the well-treated aquacultured stuff, you have live rock that is either relatively free of anything alive to begin with, or you have live rock with a few stragglers and a whole lot of stuff dying or about to die because it won’t survive in the tank. Some, if not most, rock exporters have a “curing process” that gets rid of a lot of the life to begin with and some of this is to keep it from dying and fouling further, but some of it would have lived if treated more carefully.

From the moment you start, you are in the negative. Corallines will be dying, sponges, dead worms and crustaceans and echinoids and bivalves, many of which are in the rock and you won't ever see. Not to mention the algae, cyanobacteria, and bacteria, most of which is dehydrated, dead or dying, and will decompose. This is where the existing bacteria get kick started. Bacteria grow really fast, and so they are able to grow to levels that are capable of uptaking nitrogen within...well, the cycling time of a few weeks to a month or so. The “starter bacteria” products give me a chuckle. Anyone with a passing knowledge of microbiology would realize that for a product to contain live bacteria in a medium that sustains it would quickly turn into a nearly solid mass of bacteria, and if the medium is such that it keeps them inactive, then the amount of bacteria in a bottle is like adding a grain of salt to the ocean compared to what is going to happen quickly in a tank with live rock in it.

However, if you realize the doubling time of these bugs, you would know that in a month, you should have a tank packed full of bacteria and no room for water. That means something is killing or eating bacteria. Also realize that if you have a tank with constant decomposition happening at a rate high enough to spike ammonia off the scale, you have a lot of bacteria food...way more than you will when things stop dying off and decomposing. So, bacterial growth may have caught up with the level of nitrogen being produced, but things are still dying...you just test zero for ammonia because there are enough bacteria present to keep up with the nitrogen being released by the dying stuff. It does not necessarily mean things are finished decomposing or that ammonia is not being produced.

Now, if things are decomposing, they are releasing more than ammonia. Guess what dead sponges release? All their toxic metabolites. Guess what else? All their natural antibiotic compounds which prevents some microbes from doing very well. Same with the algae, the inverts, the cyano, the dinoflagellates, etc. They all produce things that can be toxic – and sometimes toxic to things we want, and sometimes to things we don’t want. So, let's just figure this death and decomposition is going take a while.

OK, so now we have a tank packed with some kinds of bacteria, probably not much of others. Eventually the death stops. Now, what happens to all that biomass of bacteria without a food source? They die. Some continue on at an equilibrium level with the amount of nutrients available. And, denitrification is a slow process. Guess what else? Bacteria also have antibiotics, toxins, etc. all released when they die. But, the die-off is slow, relative to the loss of nutrients, and there is already a huge population, and yet you never test ammonia. "The water tests fine.” But, all these swings are happening. Swings of death, followed by growth until limited, then death again, then nutrients available for growth, and then limitation and death. But, every time, they get less and less, but they keep happening – even in mature tanks. Eventually, they slow and stabilize.

What's left? A tank with limited denitrification (because its slow and aerobic things happen fast) and a whole lot of other stuff in the water. Who comes to the rescue and thrives during these cycles? The next fastest growing groups...cyanobacteria, single celled algae, protists, ciliates, etc. Then they do their little cycle thing. And then the turf algae take advantage of the nutrients (the hair algae stage). Turfs get mowed down by all the little amphipods that are suddenly springing up because they have a food source. Maybe you've bought some snails by now, too, or a fish. And the fish dies, of course, because it may not have ammonia to contend with, but is has water filled with things we can't and don't test for...plus, beginning aquarists usually skimp on lights and pumps initially, and haven't figured out that alkalinity test, so pH and O2 are probably swinging wildly at this point.

So, the algae successions kick in, and eventually you have a good algal biomass that handles nitrogen, produces oxygen through photosynthesis, takes up the metabolic CO2 of all the other heterotrophs you can’t see, the bacteria have long settled in and also deal with nutrients, and the aquarium keeper has probably stopped adding fish for a spell because they keep dying. Maybe they started to visit boards and read books and get the knack of the tank a bit. They have probably also added a bunch of fix-it-quick chemicals that didn’t help any, either. Also, they are probably scared to add corals that would actually help with the photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, or they have packed in corals that aren't tolerant of those conditions.

About a year into it, the sand bed is productive and has stratified, water quality is stable, and the aquarist has bought a few more powerheads, understands water quality a bit, corallines and algae, if not corals and other things are photosynthesizing well, and the tank is "mature." That's when fish stop dying when you buy them (at least the cyanide free ones) and corals start to live and grow and I stop getting posts about "I just bought a coral and its dying and my tank is two months old" and they start actually answering some questions here and there instead of just asking questions (though we should all always be asking questions, if not only to ourselves!).

So, ecologically, this is successional population dynamics. Its normal, and it happens when there is a hurricane or a fire, or whatever. In nature though, you have pioneer species that are eventually replaced by climax communities. We usually try and stock immediately with climax species. And find it doesn't always work.

Now, the "too mature" system is the old tank syndrome. Happens in nature, too. That whole forest fire reinvigorating the system is true. Equally true on coral reefs where the intermediate disturbance hypothesis is the running thought on why coral reefs maintain very high diversity...they are stable, but not too stable, and require storms, but not catastrophic ones....predation, but not a giant blanket of crown of thorns, mass bleaching, or loss of key herbivores.

This goes to show what good approximations these tanks are of mini-ecosystems. Things happen much faster in tanks, but what do you expect given the bioload per unit area. So, our climax community happens in a couple years rather than a couple of centuries. Thing is, I am fully convinced that intermediate tank disturbance would prevent old tank syndrome.

My advice on starting tanks is to plan the habitat you want. Find the animals and corals you like. Learn about the tiny area of the reef you will try and recreate, and do not try to make a whole coral reef in one tank. Then, purchase the equipment required to emulate that environment. Then, add the appropriate types of substrate (sand, rubble, rock, whatever) and wait long after “your tank water tests fine” before you add fish and corals. First, add herbivores and maintain water quality. Water changes, carbon, skimming, alkalinity, calcium. Keep the water of high quality, even for things you can’t test for. Wait a few months and enjoy the growth that will happen. Then, add some of the species that you plan to keep….invertebrates and corals. They help create the environment, and also photosynthesize, add biodiversity, stabilize nutrients, etc. Then….then….add fish. The fish will have a reef as their new home. They won’t be stressed by this variable bouilllabaise of water and a strange habitat that keeps changing as things are added or die. They will have a stable tank with real habitat, and then the original concept you imagined will have happened.
 

ReeferRob

Solidarité
Oct 22, 2014
2,661
931
Bel Air
If you're handy with electricity and doing mechanical and plumbing work you can save a lot of money. I can do the mechanical stuff, the plumbing stuff, but when it comes to all things electrical I'm more lost than a porcupine in a nudist colony. Look for reviews before buying equipment, buying the wrong equipment can set you back a pretty penny as well.