Reef Discussion
Maybe @NiCd has some experience and can comment but I can't help but think that the Prime is holding back the maturation of the beneficial bacteria in your tank. These bacteria need food to grow and multiply and by neutralizing the ammonia you are effectively limiting their food source. Whilst you achieve a short term effect, in the long term you are not allowing the bacteria to reach sufficient proportions to meet the ongoing requirements of your bioload.
So, once the Prime is exhausted you effectively have another mini cycle - you put in more Prime to combat the ammonia spike and the circle continues.
I have no personal experience with Prime but I see this as a product to only use in the short term to alleviate the problems created by a specific issue i.e. a dead fish, and not as something to use on an on-going basis.
Happy to be corrected...
So, once the Prime is exhausted you effectively have another mini cycle - you put in more Prime to combat the ammonia spike and the circle continues.
I have no personal experience with Prime but I see this as a product to only use in the short term to alleviate the problems created by a specific issue i.e. a dead fish, and not as something to use on an on-going basis.
Happy to be corrected...
I thought that but the product states it doesnt affect the benificial bacteria it just changes ammonia to ammonium which the bacteria still eats but its not toxic to fish.
This is what ive read about it anyway, here is what there say on the net.
Product Description
Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.
Sizes: 50 mL, 100 mL, 250 mL, 500 mL, 2 L, 4 L, 20 L
Why It's Different
Nearly all companies manufacture a product that removes chlorine. None of those, however, can compare in quality, concentration, or effectiveness to Seachem’s flagship product: Prime®. Prime® is the second most concentrated dechlorinator on the market after our own aquavitro alpha™. A single 100 mL bottle will treat 1000 US gallons of tap water. Prime® will remove both chlorine and chloramines from municipal water supplies.
Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).
Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.
Be very careful when purchasing water conditioners. If your municipality includes chloramines in the water supplies, a standard sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator is not enough. Prime® promotes the natural production and restoration of the slime coat rather than relying on artificial or non-native slime compounds. A further bonus for the reef hobbyist—Prime® will not overactivate protein skimmers.
Directions
This is what ive read about it anyway, here is what there say on the net.
Product Description
Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.
Sizes: 50 mL, 100 mL, 250 mL, 500 mL, 2 L, 4 L, 20 L
Why It's Different
Nearly all companies manufacture a product that removes chlorine. None of those, however, can compare in quality, concentration, or effectiveness to Seachem’s flagship product: Prime®. Prime® is the second most concentrated dechlorinator on the market after our own aquavitro alpha™. A single 100 mL bottle will treat 1000 US gallons of tap water. Prime® will remove both chlorine and chloramines from municipal water supplies.
Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).
Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.
Be very careful when purchasing water conditioners. If your municipality includes chloramines in the water supplies, a standard sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator is not enough. Prime® promotes the natural production and restoration of the slime coat rather than relying on artificial or non-native slime compounds. A further bonus for the reef hobbyist—Prime® will not overactivate protein skimmers.
Directions
I don't have any particular experience with this product but it sounds like most bacteria in a bottle type products and I think magic is right in suspecting it is largely contributing to your issues.
We have a few bacteria in a bottle boffins on the site including some that help make these products for a company that is considered to have the best in the world, so they may wish to chime in as their knowledge far surpasses mine.
Usually there are pros and cons to these type products. The biggest pro is generally most work when they are added. The biggest con is that the bacteria that can stay alive in the bottle generally has trouble reproducing and sustaining itself in an aquarium. So in order to maintain an adequate population you need to constantly add the bacteria source. Now there is nothing wrong with this style of reefing, I use the zeo method and add zeo bac three times a week to my tank. But you will need to decided if you are going to do things "naturally" or take the reefing in a bottle approach knowing upfront the maintenance you will need to constantly put in.
We have a few bacteria in a bottle boffins on the site including some that help make these products for a company that is considered to have the best in the world, so they may wish to chime in as their knowledge far surpasses mine.
Usually there are pros and cons to these type products. The biggest pro is generally most work when they are added. The biggest con is that the bacteria that can stay alive in the bottle generally has trouble reproducing and sustaining itself in an aquarium. So in order to maintain an adequate population you need to constantly add the bacteria source. Now there is nothing wrong with this style of reefing, I use the zeo method and add zeo bac three times a week to my tank. But you will need to decided if you are going to do things "naturally" or take the reefing in a bottle approach knowing upfront the maintenance you will need to constantly put in.
Think its time to cut the prime then and leave my tank to Cycle properly,hopefully it will be quick and I wont kill too many items. I want it to be as little maintenance as possible, I don't mind dosing a liquid everyday but since I got the tank ive been doing at least 1 water test a day, to find things changing here and there. Now it sounds like the prime is causing the issue.
I have finally got rid of the last part of the sponge, all thats in the sump is 4" marine pure block, some activated phos free carbon, macro algae, and a handfull of live rock that I will put back in my DT once i order some more sand.
Should I continue to dose Zeo Start 3?
hey scott sorta chiming in but dont wanna seem like im telling you what to do or telling you what you've done is wrong and you shoulda woulda coulda...
but speaking from experience and @NiCd will tell you this...i had a tendency to cycle, fish, more fish more fish...but let me me show you what the result was:
now the mistakes i made were:
Cycled tank and stocked within a day of this
Moved stock over from my other tank a week later
Added more LR the next week
so all this was in 2 months..and i was forever chasing it trying to get it back on track...i then also like yourself went out and bought N0p0X4 from redsea, dosing 2mL a day for 2 weeks, skipped a day or 2 (not really understanding what i was doing) and saw little improvement so i stopped dosing. then things just kept getting worse, i ended up removing half the sand bed and adding a HOB refugium, phos was down but it was being consumed by the hair algae before it could be read but the fact i could physically see the tank was shithouse was confirmation that they were there in serious numbers
i then decided i will shut down that tank and start again (this doesnt help you but the next part might) with this new tank i asked 1000 questions and half the time i hated the answers but it was reality and these are the things i did:
1. Zeo 14 Day cycle
2. used 90% base rock and 10% LR to seed the base rock
3. satisfied my stocking disorder by stocking corals rather than fish then shrimp and snails again rather than fish
im not saying what i have done is perfect the tank is 3 months old starting to get some cyano but may be down to i havent ever done a water change on it and feed a little too much, i have stopped feeding frozen foods and just feed pellets, 3 different styles, tetra color bits, hikari marine s and hikari seaweed extreme
i will be honest i havent started dosing yet or my water changes and im heavily stocked and looking to add more (which will probably see me in your position soon lol) but my back up is that i have a 1000L skimmer that loves to eat fish poop and will strip everything out of the water lol so heavily stocking is a must for me but i kinda took the ball and ran with it
my way of looking after the phosphates and nitrates will be what someone has suggested to me and it will include running RowaPhos and dosing ZeoStart, probably 1mL/2 days to start with then adjusting as i stock more
i wont say i didn't have any issues because i did, but the issue was my skimmer took everything out of the water because i was under stocked and the skimmer was taking all the nutrients and trace elements so corals werent happy except the SPS which were slightly unhappy too because i have read they need a form of detectable phos and that you can tell that they dont if they have bleached tips (Mike Paletta)
but i will say the main things i learnt from moving to this tank is that patience is key and over severe patience is even more key lol advice from @LEG-IT when he had nothing in his tank for 1 month then corals after that then no fish until 4months....this is severe cases but it worked well because his tank is going really good as a result of this i know that no 2 tanks are the same and what worked for me or @NiCd or @LEG-IT or anyone else might not work exactly the same but the key foundations are the same ask @NiCd how many times i texted him saying im gonna get a fish and he policed it lol i think if you had a stadium full of people you wouldnt be able to count the number of times on all their fingers and toes and their relatives lol
other big important thing i found was the choice of LR i went little and yeah it meant i had a slower cycle ultra low nutrients but it meant i could slowly mature it and i still do believe maybe i stocked a little quickly after each fish but the intitial wait time is key
you can ignore this or you can read it and take at least one point that might assist you but know that im not trying to lecture or tell you how to do it only share my story and how its affected me...i just know i come home and i am proud as before i came home and asked people if they want algae harvested i have an algae scrubber for a tank lol
one last thing this is the tank i stopped using random bottles of stuff such as prime i did all that on previous tanks and had nothing but issues...as someone before me said the most it really should be used for is if you cant get yourself RO and are desperate use it to un-nasty tap water or filtered water as much as possible.
dont use ur DT as an experiment you want it to be your baby its like if you had a mercedes amg c63 would you trial a new Aldi brand wax then find out its sugar soap lol
but speaking from experience and @NiCd will tell you this...i had a tendency to cycle, fish, more fish more fish...but let me me show you what the result was:
now the mistakes i made were:
Cycled tank and stocked within a day of this
Moved stock over from my other tank a week later
Added more LR the next week
so all this was in 2 months..and i was forever chasing it trying to get it back on track...i then also like yourself went out and bought N0p0X4 from redsea, dosing 2mL a day for 2 weeks, skipped a day or 2 (not really understanding what i was doing) and saw little improvement so i stopped dosing. then things just kept getting worse, i ended up removing half the sand bed and adding a HOB refugium, phos was down but it was being consumed by the hair algae before it could be read but the fact i could physically see the tank was shithouse was confirmation that they were there in serious numbers
i then decided i will shut down that tank and start again (this doesnt help you but the next part might) with this new tank i asked 1000 questions and half the time i hated the answers but it was reality and these are the things i did:
1. Zeo 14 Day cycle
2. used 90% base rock and 10% LR to seed the base rock
3. satisfied my stocking disorder by stocking corals rather than fish then shrimp and snails again rather than fish
im not saying what i have done is perfect the tank is 3 months old starting to get some cyano but may be down to i havent ever done a water change on it and feed a little too much, i have stopped feeding frozen foods and just feed pellets, 3 different styles, tetra color bits, hikari marine s and hikari seaweed extreme
i will be honest i havent started dosing yet or my water changes and im heavily stocked and looking to add more (which will probably see me in your position soon lol) but my back up is that i have a 1000L skimmer that loves to eat fish poop and will strip everything out of the water lol so heavily stocking is a must for me but i kinda took the ball and ran with it
my way of looking after the phosphates and nitrates will be what someone has suggested to me and it will include running RowaPhos and dosing ZeoStart, probably 1mL/2 days to start with then adjusting as i stock more
i wont say i didn't have any issues because i did, but the issue was my skimmer took everything out of the water because i was under stocked and the skimmer was taking all the nutrients and trace elements so corals werent happy except the SPS which were slightly unhappy too because i have read they need a form of detectable phos and that you can tell that they dont if they have bleached tips (Mike Paletta)
but i will say the main things i learnt from moving to this tank is that patience is key and over severe patience is even more key lol advice from @LEG-IT when he had nothing in his tank for 1 month then corals after that then no fish until 4months....this is severe cases but it worked well because his tank is going really good as a result of this i know that no 2 tanks are the same and what worked for me or @NiCd or @LEG-IT or anyone else might not work exactly the same but the key foundations are the same ask @NiCd how many times i texted him saying im gonna get a fish and he policed it lol i think if you had a stadium full of people you wouldnt be able to count the number of times on all their fingers and toes and their relatives lol
other big important thing i found was the choice of LR i went little and yeah it meant i had a slower cycle ultra low nutrients but it meant i could slowly mature it and i still do believe maybe i stocked a little quickly after each fish but the intitial wait time is key
you can ignore this or you can read it and take at least one point that might assist you but know that im not trying to lecture or tell you how to do it only share my story and how its affected me...i just know i come home and i am proud as before i came home and asked people if they want algae harvested i have an algae scrubber for a tank lol
one last thing this is the tank i stopped using random bottles of stuff such as prime i did all that on previous tanks and had nothing but issues...as someone before me said the most it really should be used for is if you cant get yourself RO and are desperate use it to un-nasty tap water or filtered water as much as possible.
dont use ur DT as an experiment you want it to be your baby its like if you had a mercedes amg c63 would you trial a new Aldi brand wax then find out its sugar soap lol
Hey Leo, I make sure I read every ones posts if they had the decency to take the time out to reply to mine.
I have though about starting all over again, I am going to do this as a last resort but ive spent a fair bit on stuff so far so would really like to avoid selling it.
If i have issues i will do this
stop using the additives in my DT and miss feeds, see how the system reacts. if it seems stable great. if not im going to move my percs to QT, I will then buy an LED system for my QT tank priced it up its only about $100. move my corals into it and keep dosing it with prime to keep them alive as its going to be massively over stocked (50L)
4 x Fish: flame, 2 clown, goby
1 x Mushroom
1 x plate
1 x green star
1 x xenia i think :(
One problem I have, my hammer coral is way to big to fit in my QT tank is my 30-40 may need to find a new home or ask someone to keep until im fixed.
I could run like this for as long as needed the add corals, then the rest of my fish very slowly, the goby is never going back in my DT as its too messy. So i would only need to transfer the 3 fish in total and can do that over as long a period as i need.
What do you guys think, good plan or bad plan? lol
you know what id do...
4 fish inside a QT full of corals in a space of 1-2months should be fine...correct me if im wrong anyone?
you're not really having to sell anything :/
i would:
A) put fish and corals you really wanna keep in QT with a HOB filter n LED as a temp solution while cycling the DT from scratch
B) find a mate to hold your corals and just have the fish in the QT with a filter n basic light
C) sell off the fish and get a mate to hold corals cycle ur tank again
whichever you choose i think your cycling should include you doing:
IMO rinsing out ur sand with RO and scrubbing your rock in NSW then rinse with RO, or dry all the rock, scrub it, rinse it with RO and get a little bit of LR from a mate throw it in the sump set up ur scape with your newly created base rock, then seed the baserock with the LR from your mate do a zeo 14day cycle
again this is my opinion there may be an easier less drastic way but others can suggest...just think its so young its not a huge loss to start over you dont really have to sell anything if you sell ur corals and fish you will get ur money back only cost here is zeo products or if you dont wanna do it that way and just the LR just get LR from an established tank.
better than chasing your tail
4 fish inside a QT full of corals in a space of 1-2months should be fine...correct me if im wrong anyone?
you're not really having to sell anything :/
i would:
A) put fish and corals you really wanna keep in QT with a HOB filter n LED as a temp solution while cycling the DT from scratch
B) find a mate to hold your corals and just have the fish in the QT with a filter n basic light
C) sell off the fish and get a mate to hold corals cycle ur tank again
whichever you choose i think your cycling should include you doing:
IMO rinsing out ur sand with RO and scrubbing your rock in NSW then rinse with RO, or dry all the rock, scrub it, rinse it with RO and get a little bit of LR from a mate throw it in the sump set up ur scape with your newly created base rock, then seed the baserock with the LR from your mate do a zeo 14day cycle
again this is my opinion there may be an easier less drastic way but others can suggest...just think its so young its not a huge loss to start over you dont really have to sell anything if you sell ur corals and fish you will get ur money back only cost here is zeo products or if you dont wanna do it that way and just the LR just get LR from an established tank.
better than chasing your tail
Apart from an algae bloom they look good, my plate coral hasn't fully opened but I dont think it likes the spot I put it in, my aquascape is a mess as im not redoing it until I order some more sand, I find its pretty difficult to scape a bare bottom anyway.
I have fully removed the sponge yesterday, all readings are back to normal apart from ammonia
ammonia = 0.10 ish
nitrite = 0.0
nitrate = 0 - 0.5
Last dosage of prime was yesterday morning, apparently it has a half life of 12-24 hours so its effects should of worn off my now but im sure we wont really know the effect for at least a week.
as far as the algae goes theres 2 different types in my DT, this hard bright green stuff that only appears on bare rock or glass, then this stringy stuff that just grows on a certain type of LR.
I have fully removed the sponge yesterday, all readings are back to normal apart from ammonia
ammonia = 0.10 ish
nitrite = 0.0
nitrate = 0 - 0.5
Last dosage of prime was yesterday morning, apparently it has a half life of 12-24 hours so its effects should of worn off my now but im sure we wont really know the effect for at least a week.
as far as the algae goes theres 2 different types in my DT, this hard bright green stuff that only appears on bare rock or glass, then this stringy stuff that just grows on a certain type of LR.
Id suggest your ammonia reading is just a bad test, it doesnt hang around that long. The diatom bloom is normal and it looks like you are getting some briopsis which is normal to a certain extent as well.
I would have through you can ride this out. Your corals look ok.
Nitrate and phosphate will not kill corals is just alters their colour and inhibits calcifcation/growth, but the corals will actually use nitrate and phosphate out of the water to help with any of your issues.
Stop the prime, feed lightly, reduce your light cycles, dont add any more fish for 3 months and get rid of that thistle coral before you kill it and have that to deal with.
I would have through you can ride this out. Your corals look ok.
Nitrate and phosphate will not kill corals is just alters their colour and inhibits calcifcation/growth, but the corals will actually use nitrate and phosphate out of the water to help with any of your issues.
Stop the prime, feed lightly, reduce your light cycles, dont add any more fish for 3 months and get rid of that thistle coral before you kill it and have that to deal with.
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