Tank Journal Archive

Boxermom

Member
Nov 10, 2014
82
37
Until the video, I was actually hoping that this was a troll. :(

I feel that my perculas are kinda crowded in my 130D, which is why they are moving up in the world within the next couple of weeks. I suspect those fish feel a bit like I would if I had to live in a closet.
 

riley

Member
Apr 25, 2013
371
112
GYMEA BAY
this post makes me angry...more research is needed before purchase if u ask me.

poor little occy clown :( very confused y you would put Clarkii Clownfish, Cinnamon Clownfish and a OCCY CLOWN in together. even my GF which has no knowledge of reef keeping would tell you that was a bad idea. if you wanted to pair get 2.... not 3 and smaller versions like ocellaris or percula

you have had this advice early on and didn't lesion, resulting in the death of the fish.
Firstly, welcome! :welcome

The ???? coral looks like a Favia/Brain Coral.

Unfortunately the fish you have are not suitable for this size of tank. At all.
  • Mixing clownfish breeds is not a good idea, I believe they could in time fight and even if not, three of them in a tank this size is too many. I would remove two and go with one pair of the same kind, they will be much happier and likely host your hammer coral. I would choose the Ocellaris.
  • The blue tank needs a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy bigger tank to be happy. Like 10x as big as your tank.
  • Likewise the yellow tang, so glad in a way you had to return it. Don't replace it.

So my advice, take the 'Dory' back, take two of the clowns back, get another Ocellaris and pair it up, get another nano-suitable fish or two - like a Coral Goby.

as well as the tang..... im no tang police (currently deciding if 4x2x2 is to small for my tang I've had forever) but come on man what is that a 1ft cube? he could grow that big. and i would say blue tang and the clowns are meanies they will bully small fish to death.


i do find it strange you what to return the small fish and keep the big ones.. if i didn't watch vid id say troll 2.

imo sell the blue tang and the clowns and keep 1 or 2 of the small fish there are some really nice small fish out there and some have the advantage of been captive bred

im pretty sure this is the reason you tell a environmentalist you keep a marine tank and you get a 1 hour long debt on stuff you really don't wanna get into. (made that mistake to 1 of my client that came in to do her tax return... i had to tell her she is been charged by the hour to get her to stop...)
 
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I can't really add anything more to this, than what has already been said above, but I have to.

You, my "friend", is an absolute idiot! You are either the most cruel person I have ever "met", or absolutely completely stupid and ignorant. Since I can't believe that somebody can be THAT stupid and ignorant to put all those fish in that tiny tank, let alone a blue tang and thinking of adding a REGAL TANG, I must go with my first option to say that you are an intentionally cruel person.

Did you also pull wings off flies when you were little? I'm sure you did, that is usually the first signs of what to come.

Can you call RSPCA on somebody with a tank?
 

Aspidites

Member
Dec 1, 2012
600
209
South lake
All I have to add is please, please, please take the advice of my fellow reefers on this forum and change your fish selection. And maybe you ideas.
My mum always said that if one person objects they might be wrong, if 2 people speak up. Have a look at want you are doing and check if those people are right. If you get 3 or more objections (or in your case an entire forum) CHANGE WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND STOP BEING PIG HEADED!!!
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Okay, enough is enough.

This is a tricky situation. On one hand, the community needs to follow the rules.

2. Abusing other members of the forum, harassing or trolling is forbidden. You may not post other members personal details against their will and you may not make hate posts about these members. Behavior like this will NOT BE TOLERATED and you will be banned. Only staff members are to warn other users for breaking rules. If there is a post / thread that you believe breaks a rule, please use the report button. This not only allows you to make an anonymous report, but allows our staff members to help prevent a thread being hijacked.

Rules like this are in place to keep the community nice and peaceful since we don't really delete/lock threads. So anything is up for discussion, as long as users debate respectfully with each other. This has not happened.

On the other hand, what @Azedenkae is doing is being cruel to the animals that rely completely on him to care for them. Since The Reefuge allows open-discussion, this thread and journal will not be censored. So, it seems we have a strange situation here.

As with everything in life there is a consequence to your actions. In this matter, I will be included in the consequence since I was unable to provide guidelines for situations such as this. So here is what we are going to do.

  1. Members who posted abusive messages will be issued a warning via our warning system. This is your consequence.
  2. You, @Azedenkae will share the consequence with me. This thread will remain open and from the time of this post, any and all messages posted by the members regarding your tank/you will not be moderated, regardless of if they break the rules or not. The only thing members may not post is personal information of ANY user. Your consequence is you will need to put up with it. My consequence is that I will also need to put up with it.

Normally this would not happen, but I draw the line at ethics. What you are doing is wrong and cruel, and the fact that you completely ignored the communities advice and pleas shows me that you have no intention of changing your view. You're welcome to use the forums and be a member of the community, but as long as you partake in animal cruelty, I will not be warning members for their posts to you, regardless of if they break the rules or not.

Thanks.
 
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Mar 1, 2014
229
100
This person (of the lowest kind) has not responded and I think they would have left the group. Who could hang around and here these things? I hope they get the message and return the fish to hopefully save their lives.
 

Azedenkae

Member
Jun 17, 2013
191
40
Okay, enough is enough.

This is a tricky situation. On one hand, the community needs to follow the rules.

2. Abusing other members of the forum, harassing or trolling is forbidden. You may not post other members personal details against their will and you may not make hate posts about these members. Behavior like this will NOT BE TOLERATED and you will be banned. Only staff members are to warn other users for breaking rules. If there is a post / thread that you believe breaks a rule, please use the report button. This not only allows you to make an anonymous report, but allows our staff members to help prevent a thread being hijacked.

Rules like this are in place to keep the community nice and peaceful since we don't really delete/lock threads. So anything is up for discussion, as long as users debate respectfully with each other. This has not happened.

On the other hand, what @Azedenkae is doing is being cruel to the animals that rely completely on him to care for them. Since The Reefuge allows open-discussion, this thread and journal will not be censored. So, it seems we have a strange situation here.

As with everything in life there is a consequence to your actions. In this matter, I will be included in the consequence since I was unable to provide guidelines for situations such as this. So here is what we are going to do.

  1. Members who posted abusive messages will be issued a warning via our warning system. This is your consequence.
  2. You, @Azedenkae will share the consequence with me. This thread will remain open and from the time of this post, any and all messages posted by the members regarding your tank/you will not be moderated, regardless of if they break the rules or not. The only thing members may not post is personal information of ANY user. Your consequence is you will need to put up with it. My consequence is that I will also need to put up with it.

Normally this would not happen, but I draw the line at ethics. What you are doing is wrong and cruel, and the fact that you completely ignored the communities advice and pleas shows me that you have no intention of changing your view. You're welcome to use the forums and be a member of the community, but as long as you partake in animal cruelty, I will not be warning members for their posts to you, regardless of if they break the rules or not.

Thanks.
Hi Reefuge, thank you for your post.

As I've discussed with someone else over private message, I am glad that there are still those on this forum who can discuss matters calmly and with reason, rather than name-calling and ignoring points of discussion, which contributes nothing.

From my point of view, discussions are simple. One side present evidence. If the other side doesn't agree, they provide evidence to counter-argue. Then if the first side disagrees, they then provide their counter-arguments and evidence. And so on.

It's rather frustrating to post evidence, then well... everything degenerates.

The reason why I respond still, is because I always want to adhere to that.

I am generally a calm person, however there are times when things go too far. And that includes not reading what I have posted, and shooting your mouth off at unaffiliated people.

As many are aware, I work for an aquarium store. I just received a phone call that someone actually complained directly to the store. Really? Why even?

They have nothing to do with my choices, and I've stated that repeatedly. What is that even for? Why stoop so low to do such a thing, beyond even calling me names? I can understand calling me names, as you're still dealing with me directly. I can still appreciate that when you aren't able to come up with a proper counter-argument, you can stoop to that.

But to underhandedly try something else because you're unable to come with a proper counter-argument?

Well that is awesome. :) No really, it is. I am glad that people (yes, more than one person) does that, as it goes to show what sort of community I am dealing with.

I am glad that there are those who are actually reasonable, I really am. Thank you The Reefuge and others-that-I-will-not-name, I can see you guys clearly disagree with me, but it's great that we can debate matters like ladies and gentlemen, rather than savages.

Anyways, long story short, I am going to stop posting about my tank, as there's really no point anymore. A number of things though:

1.) If you are going to attempt to respond to something, get your facts straight. It is rather pointless when you attempt to talk about something (such as a problem) that is non-existent.

2.) The Blue Tang is in there until it grows bigger. Could be a year. Could be a few months. Could be next week. I said that repeatedly.

3.) The Clownfish are permanent residents.

4.) I decided on this stock list myself.

5.) If you are going to reason with someone, then provide evidence for your reasonings, and be prepared to read what others say. This may sound rather egoistic, but I provided plenty of evidence in response to posts by others. What is the response to that? :)

So, have a good day y'all! Peace out, chillax and enjoy the hobby. Don't get your panties (or whatever you wear) in a bunch! :)

aimg.photobucket.com_albums_v320_Azure_Dragon1990_Mobile_20Uploads_20141116_161808_1_zps2px2rgqq.jpg


Piggybear sad. Piggybear no get to be famous anymore. :(
 

bimbo

Member
Oct 7, 2014
150
111
Newcastle
Can you please repost the 'evidence' that a 36L tank is suitable to keep numerous sp of clowns together and a blue tang and whatever other fish you still have in there? I had a read back through and couldn't see any.
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Hi Reefuge, thank you for your post.

As I've discussed with someone else over private message, I am glad that there are still those on this forum who can discuss matters calmly and with reason, rather than name-calling and ignoring points of discussion, which contributes nothing.

From my point of view, discussions are simple. One side present evidence. If the other side doesn't agree, they provide evidence to counter-argue. Then if the first side disagrees, they then provide their counter-arguments and evidence. And so on.

It's rather frustrating to post evidence, then well... everything degenerates.

The reason why I respond still, is because I always want to adhere to that.

I am generally a calm person, however there are times when things go too far. And that includes not reading what I have posted, and shooting your mouth off at unaffiliated people.

As many are aware, I work for an aquarium store. I just received a phone call that someone actually complained directly to the store. Really? Why even?

They have nothing to do with my choices, and I've stated that repeatedly. What is that even for? Why stoop so low to do such a thing, beyond even calling me names? I can understand calling me names, as you're still dealing with me directly. I can still appreciate that when you aren't able to come up with a proper counter-argument, you can stoop to that.

But to underhandedly try something else because you're unable to come with a proper counter-argument?

Well that is awesome. :) No really, it is. I am glad that people (yes, more than one person) does that, as it goes to show what sort of community I am dealing with.

I am glad that there are those who are actually reasonable, I really am. Thank you The Reefuge and others-that-I-will-not-name, I can see you guys clearly disagree with me, but it's great that we can debate matters like ladies and gentlemen, rather than savages.

Anyways, long story short, I am going to stop posting about my tank, as there's really no point anymore. A number of things though:

1.) If you are going to attempt to respond to something, get your facts straight. It is rather pointless when you attempt to talk about something (such as a problem) that is non-existent.

2.) The Blue Tang is in there until it grows bigger. Could be a year. Could be a few months. Could be next week. I said that repeatedly.

3.) The Clownfish are permanent residents.

4.) I decided on this stock list myself.

5.) If you are going to reason with someone, then provide evidence for your reasonings, and be prepared to read what others say. This may sound rather egoistic, but I provided plenty of evidence in response to posts by others. What is the response to that? :)

So, have a good day y'all! Peace out, chillax and enjoy the hobby. Don't get your panties (or whatever you wear) in a bunch! :)

View attachment 45640

Piggybear sad. Piggybear no get to be famous anymore. :(
Hello @Azedenkae,

I would like to respond to your post on a few points you have made.

I agree with you that there are sites on the internet that give an incorrect recommended tank size to house a specimen. However, I do not agree with you on this particular case. The community, collectively, agrees with this point of view. They have provided information about this, as well as asking you to not go ahead with your stock list before you filled your tank. These suggestions and pleas were ignored and you did what you wanted to do.

Again, this site is open for users to debate their point of view without getting attacked for it. However, as stated previously, I draw my line at ethics. Let's put this into a bit of perspective and assume you can legally do anything you like to an animal, including torture.

This chicken below came from a cage where she has no room to move. She lays eggs for us to enjoy during a lovely Sunday morning breakfast at home. This is legal.
In the next photo, she was let out of the cage and had been living as a free-range chicken for 3 months. As you can see, she looks a lot better as she is able to roam the fields.

ai.imgur.com_Es4wskb.jpg


I don't think there would be a single person that will agree that when this chicken was caged was happier or healthier than when she was able to roam freely. This applies to your tank. Users (rightfully) got upset because you, a human being, are in a position of responsibility to care for the animals in your tank. You can debate evidence as much as you like, but ultimately, you did not post peer-reviewed evidence to back up your statement.

Under normal circumstances you should be free to do as you wish, even with the lack of evidence. However, in this case, failing to provide actual evidence to back up what you claim has a huge consequence, and that is the quality of life for the animals living in your tank.

So, if you are right and the community is wrong (with the lack of evidence), the best case scenario is that your fish survive in a confined space with relatively little room to move, and that is cruel. Now, that is the best case scenario for you.

There are some things that even though you could possibly be correct, does not make it right. Sure, I could lock up a child in a room and have them live their whole life in that room - as long as I provide something to stimulate their mind and find peer-reviewed evidence that it does not cause psychological or psychological damage, then it should all be fine. I can't see this going down well with the majority of people.

Personally, I would take the advice of the community and remove your fish. The choice is ultimately yours. As you made up your mind of what sort of community this is due to our actions, I will, and we will make up our minds on what kind of person you are based on your actions.

Thanks.
 

Azedenkae

Member
Jun 17, 2013
191
40
Hello @Azedenkae,

I would like to respond to your post on a few points you have made.

I agree with you that there are sites on the internet that give an incorrect recommended tank size to house a specimen. However, I do not agree with you on this particular case. The community, collectively, agrees with this point of view. They have provided information about this, as well as asking you to not go ahead with your stock list before you filled your tank. These suggestions and pleas were ignored and you did what you wanted to do.

Again, this site is open for users to debate their point of view without getting attacked for it. However, as stated previously, I draw my line at ethics. Let's put this into a bit of perspective and assume you can legally do anything you like to an animal, including torture.

This chicken below came from a cage where she has no room to move. She lays eggs for us to enjoy during a lovely Sunday morning breakfast at home. This is legal.
In the next photo, she was let out of the cage and had been living as a free-range chicken for 3 months. As you can see, she looks a lot better as she is able to roam the fields.

View attachment 45643

I don't think there would be a single person that will agree that when this chicken was caged was happier or healthier than when she was able to roam freely. This applies to your tank. Users (rightfully) got upset because you, a human being, are in a position of responsibility to care for the animals in your tank. You can debate evidence as much as you like, but ultimately, you did not post peer-reviewed evidence to back up your statement.

Under normal circumstances you should be free to do as you wish, even with the lack of evidence. However, in this case, failing to provide actual evidence to back up what you claim has a huge consequence, and that is the quality of life for the animals living in your tank.

So, if you are right and the community is wrong (with the lack of evidence), the best case scenario is that your fish survive in a confined space with relatively little room to move, and that is cruel. Now, that is the best case scenario for you.

There are some things that even though you could possibly be correct, does not make it right. Sure, I could lock up a child in a room and have them live their whole life in that room - as long as I provide something to stimulate their mind and find peer-reviewed evidence that it does not cause psychological or psychological damage, then it should all be fine. I can't see this going down well with the majority of people.

Personally, I would take the advice of the community and remove your fish. The choice is ultimately yours. As you made up your mind of what sort of community this is due to our actions, I will, and we will make up our minds on what kind of person you are based on your actions.

Thanks.
Hi The Reefuge, I do agree with you. A chicken cooped up versus a chicken that is free to roam.

However, we are talking about a chick, not a chicken. A very small one at that. I mean, it is 4cm, not the adult size of 30cm. Sure, even a chick would appreciate more space, but that doesn't mean it doesn't appreciate what it has at the moment. With that logic, we can say we should release all our fish into the sea, because they'll appreciate that more so (minus the predators and stuff, size-wise I mean).

That's really what I am getting at, and has been from the start.

@bimbo: Apologies, I wasn't very clear (though it should have been if you read everything). The conclusion was that the websites and 'common knowledge' on tank sizes, at least for Clownfish is wrong, and that really no one knows what's too small and what's not. So whilst I can't say this will be fine, I can say that no one can say this won't be fine, as there's no evidence for that. There is evidence that people saying this is not fine based on the common websites/knowledge is wrong, from the links I posted is all. :) Hope that makes sense to you, finally. Otherwise I don't really know how else to state it.


-----

Like I said, it's you guys who are saying this is too small, and so you have to provide justifiable evidence for that. The evidence provided are invalid, so tada. :) Can't say it's too small.
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Hi The Reefuge, I do agree with you. A chicken cooped up versus a chicken that is free to roam.

However, we are talking about a chick, not a chicken. A very small one at that. I mean, it is 4cm, not the adult size of 30cm. Sure, even a chick would appreciate more space, but that doesn't mean it doesn't appreciate what it has at the moment. With that logic, we can say we should release all our fish into the sea, because they'll appreciate that more so (minus the predators and stuff, size-wise I mean).

That's really what I am getting at, and has been from the start.

@bimbo: Apologies, I wasn't very clear (though it should have been if you read everything). The conclusion was that the websites and 'common knowledge' on tank sizes, at least for Clownfish is wrong, and that really no one knows what's too small and what's not. So whilst I can't say this will be fine, I can say that no one can say this won't be fine, as there's no evidence for that. There is evidence that people saying this is not fine based on the common websites/knowledge is wrong, from the links I posted is all. :) Hope that makes sense to you, finally. Otherwise I don't really know how else to state it.


-----

Like I said, it's you guys who are saying this is too small, and so you have to provide justifiable evidence for that. The evidence provided are invalid, so tada. :) Can't say it's too small.
Your failure to take anything on board, despite users posting evidence that it common knowledge is staggering. In all fairness, you don't seem like a bad person. You have conducted yourself politely on these forums, but your inability to listen is a big weakness.

Because of this, I will not continue the discussion with you, as it is both a waste of your time, as it is a waste of mine. You are free to continue to be a member of the community, but I will not be replying to you. However, there is one thing I would like to say because I believe you would be quite young and are starting to plan your future.

I am a tradesman. I design, modify, build and maintain machinery and design automation solutions. Because of the amount of work involved, it is absolutely vital to train people (apprentices) to learn skills in multiple fields to be able to keep up with the technology and teach individuals to become highly skilled.

It is vital that the apprentice listens and learns. There are disagreements, sure, but for the most part they learn and become skilled tradesman. If you were my apprentice, and were so stubborn, not taking anything on board, you would be useless to me. I would have no hesitation to either move you to a mind-numbing job or get rid of you.

I am not saying this to be mean, or have a go at you. I am saying this because at some point, you will overstep your boundaries at some job your worked hard for, and you will be fired. Do with that as you will.

Thanks.
 

riley

Member
Apr 25, 2013
371
112
GYMEA BAY
in his defense id don't think there is any studies done to confirm exactly what size tank is needed for a specific species.

however there is equally no evidence to support his claim that the tank is a suitable size for the specific species

it may not be a peer reviewed study but the marine aquarium community as a wealth of knowledge that has been built upon years of first hand accounts in home/public aquariums.

i do think if you look on the forum's in relation to illness or death you will find a correlation between tank size and illness to support the communities claims.

i do think if you truly believe that it is a sustainable sized tank you should research this further.

lastly 3rd clownfish would have a greater chance of survival in a larger fish tank been able to hide from the to other clowns. (failed to provide suitable living conditions for the fish)
 

NiCd

Lead Moderator
Jul 29, 2011
4,296
1,586
Sydney
Hi Azedenkae,

It sounds like other people have taken other actions, but I will put my hand up and acknowledge that I messaged Paul when all this has happened, as I also used to be associated with the Shop.

When these threads appeared I had honest concerns that you were a troll and that the purpose of this was to incite anger and possibly taint Majestic. You can confirm with Paul that was my line of questioning.

I no longer have associations with Majestic but I would like to remind everyone that this is a private tank that Majestic has no association with. I have also been asked to advise that this staff member works solely with on-line orders and not in store and to please not take his actions or opinions as being associated with Majestic.

This is an individual doing what he wants in his own time.

I think the hostility you are seeing, which is uncharacteristic of this forum, is due to what others see as your harsh stance on the live stocks well being.

I would site the video you have submitted as strong evidence that the tang is clearly not suited to the enclosure you are keeping it in and regardless of the "recommendations" surrounding the keeping of any fish, if I saw one of my fish behaving in such a manner, I would take immediate steps to change its environment.

Given the ease of access you have to larger enclosures for this fish and that fact that you refuse to take up those opportunities is what I personally find disturbing.

I would humbly ask you to look at this again, removing everything that is happening here, and ask yourself is what you are doing in the best interest of the fish.

Cheers
Ads
 

Azedenkae

Member
Jun 17, 2013
191
40
Thank you for acknowledging that what I am doing is separate from the rest of Majestic Aquariums.

As for what you recommend, well, I refuse.

To be honest, it's gotten to the point where this will go nowhere. I will keep on being accused of treating my fish unfairly, and I'll keep on providing statements that those accusations are wrong.

It will just be a cycle.

To save everyone's time, I'm going to end it here. I will no longer post journal updates on this tank, or respond.

Yay, a victory to the people! Yeah, I guess you guys win - of sorts. It'll be out of your sight(ish), but anyways, I have other, more important things to do than this.

Cheerio!
 

bimbo

Member
Oct 7, 2014
150
111
Newcastle
To be honest, it's gotten to the point where this will go nowhere. I will keep on being accused of treating my fish unfairly, and I'll keep on providing statements that those accusations are wrong.
As I see it that is all you have provided - statements that those accusations are wrong. You haven't provided any 'evidence' that this is a suitable sized tank for the fish that are in it.
Unfortunately even if you disappear and don't update the thread, as long as you are keeping the fish in this tank they will be suffering.

I am a scientist by trade and as you are working outside of the 'norm' the onus is YOU to provide 'evidence' and prove and challenge the accepted views.
 

MTG

Moderator
Jul 10, 2011
10,664
2,149
Gold Coast
I say bring back the dislike button!
You stopping posting isn't going to help the poor live stock..... Would you like to be shoved in the boot of my car for a couple years? But hey ill feed you through the center console gap so that it makes it ok right? im sure you will have plenty of room for my experiment ...
 

Attachments

Mar 1, 2014
229
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As I see it that is all you have provided - statements that those accusations are wrong. You haven't provided any 'evidence' that this is a suitable sized tank for the fish that are in it.
Unfortunately even if you disappear and don't update the thread, as long as you are keeping the fish in this tank they will be suffering.

I am a scientist by trade and as you are working outside of the 'norm' the onus is YOU to provide 'evidence' and prove and challenge the accepted views.
You keep in saying that we need to have evidence of what you are doing is proven to be wrong but you yourself have not passed on any documents that what you doing is deemed correct in anyone's eyes. Can you re post like @bimbo asked. We would like to read it and see where you have gained your knowledge from.
 

NiCd

Lead Moderator
Jul 29, 2011
4,296
1,586
Sydney
Playing Devils advocate, I think he is right to some degree that the guides that are online are guides and only peoples opinions.

You can have a damsel that is fine in a smaller tank with other fish around and you can have the same species of damsel in a lager tank and it will bully and stress every other fish into oblivion.

If the argument being presented was that after observation of this fish and with prior experience keeping this fish in a wide range of condition that this particular one is showing no ill signs from being in a smaller than normally recommended environment, Id go well OK, not my experience but if the fish is ok the fish is ok.

But the only "evidence" I have seen in regards to this fish well being is the video that he posted, which from what I can see shows a stressed tang acting in a fashion I associate with incorrect environment.

He may have shown that you can maintain its life in a small environment but that doesnt mean its happy, healthy or that you should treat it this way.

Same as Matt keeping the OP in the boot of his car, whilst that may be something Matt does quiet often and the OP may deserve, but doesnt mean that it should happen :)
 
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