Reef Discussion

[jashay]

hi guys :D

I have been running my tank from the start without a skimmer, basically because my tank is a blue planet complete unit setup, the hood is fully intergrated but has a spot for the skimmer, but I havent been able to locate the skimmer that is meant for the unit, if I can it will probably be rediculous in $$$.
the filter system it has in it is really good though, it is intergrated into the hood and has several compartments in it for the various filter media, I am running ceramic noodles, filter wool, bio balls and some activated carbon and the filter runs really efficiently with that and my water quality is high and pretty much crystal clear ( I do get some turbidity from feeding but this clears well).
I do plan on eventually getting a skimmer, probably not the specific one for the unit though, I do find not running a skimmer good for the filter feeding corals though.
I am running an extra, small internal canister filter power head unit with the same filter media in it as the main filtration, this one was actually an established filter that was used to help cycle the tank when I first started it, I was going to remove it but never got around to it, and it isnt that big so it doesnt take much space and isnt to unsightly. I do want to run a sump to get rid of all the equipment out of the display but this is a prob with the intergrated hood, once again, so as good as they can be they do have there draw backs. if any one has ideas on how to over come this I will be all ears!

anyways, Im wondering who else runs their tanks minus skimming equipment and what their success/failure stories are. :D

 

[Jonny Glover]

ive runned my tank skimmerless for 4 months. I hated it, the water wasn't as clear and the water smelt foul. Skimmers are a must in this hobby.

 

[jashay]

I havent had any drama with foul smelling water? interesting. the water clarity is pretty damn good in mine considering Im not running one, I do find that I get a "skin" on the surface which I remove by placing a single sheet of newspaper on the surface. this picks it up and only needs doing every couple of days.

I do plan on getting them eventually though :D

 

[MTG]

have a look at the hydor nano and pico style skimmers rather small and well speced for their size

 

[DavidS]

I'm skimmerless - I do have a nano, but I have a pretty strict water change regime. Been thinking about a Rio Nano skimmer or something like that, but then I don't want to pour any more money into the nano. No smells, and water is clear.

Be wary of them bio balls!

 

[jashay]

I have been looking at the smaller skimmers, it will need to be a smaller one to fit in the units spot for it, the space will allow a 10cm diameter unit, the problem then becomes how deep it is as it wouldnt be far from hitting the reef. problems with running sumpless displays!
my water changes are reasonably consitent, but Im still a little confused about this smell? can some one go into detail with that?

the bio balls I am using are the smaller kind, around 1.5cm diameter and I havent seemed to have a prob with them, have you had some troubles David?

I have found with my tank if I keep things simple I dont run into to many problems, I try and keep things as stable as possible, im avoiding the use of buffers at the moment, I was using a ph buffer at one stage (one dose) but didn't like it to much, it just didn't seem right when I can do a change and get similar results if not better.

 

[DavidS]

Bio balls tend to be considered to be nitrate traps from most of what I've read.

 

[VaultBoy]

^^I'm with you... almost no-one will recommend the use of bio balls anymore. However they can work well if cleaned very regularly from what I have read.

 

[jashay]

interesting!

i never thought of them as a nitrate trap. I can see that it could happen though. tankfully my filter is quite effiecient and I havent had a nitrate problem at all. it did spike quite high during the cycle but this is to be expected. the highest reading of nitrate I have had since the cycle finished was around 10-15ppm I have never had it go higher.

has any one used the bio booster additive? I used the whole bottle of it in my tank when I started it up and this actually helped the cycle of the tank quite rapidly. I will be starting a tank journal soon, I finally got the program to load onto my computer for the wifes phone, now I just need to find the usb cord to attach it :confused: or i will just buy one. but anyways I have a rather detailed diary of when I first started the tank up and the cycling process it went through with everything so I will try and be as detailed as possible and you guys can pick holes out in my methods :p

 

[MTG]

or you could just buy a cheap camera :worship

 

[Donski]

i just upload from my phone straight to photo bucket, its alot easier

 

[jashay]

yea I want to buy a camera, problem is I am spending on other things! like corals lol. got the missus looking for the usb cord. she is better at finding stuff like that cause she is the one that puts them away in silly places!

 

[MagicJ]

Bio balls tend to be considered to be nitrate traps from most of what I've read.

Not so much nitrate traps but nitrate factories ;). I see two problems with bio balls in a reef aquarium.

Firstly, the bio-balls are very good at trapping detrius - if trapped it cannot be removed via filter socks or skimming and will eventually break down into nitrate. To act efficiently they need to be cleaned regularly which can be difficult to do as they are often packed into a small compartment.

Secondly, they are designed to have a large surface area to house aerobic bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite and then nitrate. And the are very good at doing this. The problem is that they don't have an anaerobic zone to process the nitrate to nitrogen gas so the nitrate just keeps building up.

Nitrate is not such a problem for fish and that is why this type of filter was successful in freshwater and fish only tanks. However, corals are susceptible to relatively low levels - a good live rock based filtration system is the best solution for a reef.

 

[Dr. Schell]

Bioballs are fine, as long as you have the ability to break the nitrate down into nitrogen. To briefly go over what an effective filtration system does........ Fish and heterotrophic bacteria produce Ammonia from the food that they eat. The Ammonia (most toxic component on the nitrogen cycle) is broken down by aerobic (bacteria that utilise oxygen) into nitrite, and a differen type of aerobic bacteria breaks down the nitrite into nitrate. Now this is the part which gets tricky. The bacteria that reduces nitrate into nitrogen is aneerobic (lives in the absence of oxygen). Therefore, for this bacteria to live, we must supply either a deep sand bed or some other form of oxygen deficient zone (e.g. dense live rock). If these areas are not supplies, the nitrate is not reduced into nitrogen and this them builds up in our systems (unless we have some other form of equipment to reduce nitrate - e.g.nitrate reactor). So as you can see by this, the bioballs are not the issue. The issue is providing adequate areas for the anerobic bacteria to live and reproduce. If this is provided, the bioballs are fine as the Nitrate will be removed from the system. In the absence of the oxygen deficient zones, we must rely on water-changes to export the nitrate.
Hope that this helps.

 

[jashay]

thanks heaps for the write up and explaination people! that has helped a heap with my understanding of the process! I do have a fair amount of live rock in my system so this might be the reason why I dont have to much prob with nitrates. also have a fair bit of porous base rock which I presume has seeded somewhat from the live rock in the system.

one question with live rock - if this is in the display area, does it still work as a filtration? or does this actually have to be in a filter or sump to be effective? I know this may seem like a bit of a silly question but I have been rather curious with it and never really understood, only knowing that live rock is good to have in the system as from what I understand of it is that it works as a natural filtration?

in my tank as it doesnt have a sump, I have built a decent sized live rock reef, the tank itself holds around 200l. I beleive I probably have around the likes of at least 12kg of live rock in it. it takes up at least one third of the display tank. which actually brings me to another question in regards to base and live rock, should I start another thread on that? or continue the discussion here?

cheers :D

 

[Donski]

aslong as there is flow over the rocks it will be filtering and the base rock will become live over time aswell

 

[jashay]

cheers :D

I thought that was the case, thanks for the confirmation :D

 

[n0rk]

I ran skimmerless for many years which was just fine... the results were passable for an incredibly low-tech setup (as in, one where the only remote method of automation was a light timer) and served me well for what I was trying to achieve. I must say, it did require a significant amount of waterchanges to keep on top of things however. Running carbon and purigen kept the water fairly crystal, and running no skimmer meant that planktonic foods remained fairly untouched.

If you're willing to put the effort in to make it work it can be amazing, but it does need to be done sensibly and with a modicum of input from yourself... trying to do a system without a skimmer there as a fallback isn't for the feint of heart so if you intend to try it be sure of what you'll be required to do... but it can be remarkably rewarding.

 

[firebird]

I run without a skimmer but I am religious with water changes-do it twice a week about 10% each time. Bear in mind though that my tank was 75l-have recently upped to 90l. Has gone well without a skimmer though to date.

 

[n0rk]

I found for something like a strictly SPS tank, I was having to do several large (30% or so) WCs a week to keep up with nutrients with a fairly heavy feeding regimen (100L, >50 Acros, 1 Centropyge eibli, 2 Amphiprion perideraion, 1 Nemateleotris magnifica, no 'fuge or DSB...) ... it all comes down to the rest of your needs for the system.

Also note some systems employ it very successfully - the Miracle Mud method proper runs without a skimmer and has achieved some of the nicest tanks on the planet. Different ways to get somewhere nice.