Reef Discussion

V

'vspec'

Guest
polyhydroxyalkanoates
I love this word, anything that causes you to spit on the computer and your associates in one sitting is always a good thing!
Cool dude, I'll have a read.
Charging by the hr for my peer review though.....;) just saying!
 

NiCd

Lead Moderator
Jul 29, 2011
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you think i should have gone with polyhydroxyalkanoates instead of solid carbon dosing?
 
V

'vspec'

Guest
Ok I'm reasonably smart, but my head just exploded with extra formula's.
Christ, now I wish I hadn't shot my chemistry mate for stealing 5 bricks off me! :confused:

Ok so you ready to break this sucker down for the layman? Cause if your willing, I'm willing to give attention.
awww.desmonorthwest.com_forums_images_smilies_popcorn2.gif
 

Synodontis

Member
Aug 1, 2011
1,979
968
Melton, Victoria
OK, Hands up who understood that??
I tried reading it last nite & just figured It was late. Tried again this morning & maybe it's just to early. Somehow I dont think after 10 coffees & a packet of smokes, it's going to make much sense this after noon either :( Might need a few days to digest this one!
 

NiCd

Lead Moderator
Jul 29, 2011
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Sydney
i only get about 70% of it a few of the terms go over my head. I think what can be a bit confusing as well its the that units of measurement they state in their formulas and results are different to the terms we use in the hobby. Ive just driven 9 hours to get back home so everything is a little foggy, but which sections were you struggling with in particular ?
 
V

'vspec'

Guest
Lets break this down shall we. Use the PDF folks, I'm to lazy at the moment to snapshot pages to bring them here.


Facultative Aerobic Bacteria
Shift to NO3-or NO2-when O2limited
An organism that can grow well both in the absence of oxygen and in the presence of a level of oxygen equivalent to that in an air atmosphere (21% oxygen). Some are capable of growing aerobically by respiring with oxygen and anaerobically by fermentation [anaerobic respiration is also possible]; others have a strictly fermentative type of metabolism and do not respire with oxygen
Chemotrophic

Heterotrophic –organic electron donor

Autotrophic –H2 or reduced sulfur
As simple as this ~ Producers and Consumers, In this case talking bacteria.
Auto troph = Self Feeders (producer)
Hetero troph = Different Feeders (consumer)

Chemotrophs are organisms that obtain energy by the oxidation of electron donors in their environments. These molecules can be organic (chemoorganotrophs) or inorganic (chemolithotrophs). The chemotroph designation is in contrast to phototrophs, which utilize solar energy. Chemotrophs can be either autotrophic or heterotrophic.

Nitrate (NO3-) ⇒Nitrite (NO2-) ⇒
Nitric Oxide (NO) ⇒Nitrous Oxide (N2) ⇒
Nitrogen Gas (N2)
This is referring to the process of denitrifaction

Denitrification

NO3-[Broken External Image]:http://www.visionlearning.com/library/modules/mid98/Image/VLObject-488-021202021211.gif N2+ N2O Through denitrification, oxidized forms of nitrogen such as nitrate and nitrite (NO2-) are converted to dinitrogen (N2) and, to a lesser extent, nitrous oxide gas. Denitrification is an anaerobic process that is carried out by denitrifying bacteria, which convert nitrate to dinitrogen in the following sequence:
NO3- [Broken External Image]:http://www.visionlearning.com/library/modules/mid98/Image/VLObject-488-021202021211.gif NO2- [Broken External Image]:http://www.visionlearning.com/library/modules/mid98/Image/VLObject-488-021202021211.gif NO [Broken External Image]:http://www.visionlearning.com/library/modules/mid98/Image/VLObject-488-021202021211.gif N2O [Broken External Image]:http://www.visionlearning.com/library/modules/mid98/Image/VLObject-488-021202021211.gif N2.
Nitric oxide and nitrous oxide are both environmentally important gases. Nitric oxide (NO) contributes to smog, and nitrous oxide (N2O) is an important greenhouse gas, thereby contributing to global climate change.
Once converted to dinitrogen, nitrogen is unlikely to be reconverted to a biologically available form because it is a gas and is rapidly lost to the atmosphere. Denitrification is the only nitrogen transformation that removes nitrogen from ecosystems (essentially irreversibly), and it roughly balances the amount of nitrogen fixed by the nitrogen fixers described above.
On page 8, No3-N is quoted as a nitrogen input value, this is specificly referring to nitrogen content in the test sample due to the contributing nitrates. Reasoning benchmark, they strip away other elements to give a baseline. In this case, N . This is what I assume to be the case anyway

Also on that graph, they state a low BOD, which is
Biochemical oxygen demand or B.O.D. is the amount of dissolved oxygen needed by aerobic biological organisms in a body of water to break down organic material present in a given water sample at certain temperature over a specific time period. The term also refers to a chemical procedure for determining this amount
High TAN , I would assume is Total Acid Numbering. Identifying values in the Chemotrophic process.
And Low NO3-N, which is the desired outcome.

Shall we keep going with this type of breakdown to aid understanding and discussion?
 

NiCd

Lead Moderator
Jul 29, 2011
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Sydney
i find it interesting the increase in alk in the effluent, I have always seem drops in alk when using liquid carbon sources
 

MavG

Member
Nov 8, 2011
120
43
Newcastle
TAN is total ammonia nitrogen.

the increase in Alkalinity in the effluent is due to the denitrification process. As nitrate is denbitrified, the carbonates used when ammonia is oxidised to nitrite and the nitrite oxidised to nitrate, is released to a certain extent.

So the Ammonia oxidising (opr nitrite oxidising bacteria), such as nitrosomonas, nitrobacteria, nitrospira nitrosospira, nitrosolobus, nitrococcus, nitrosococcus etc etc, take the ammonia (or nitrite), oxygen and inorganic carbon (carbonate or bicarbonate, not organic carbon that heterotropic bacteria use) and release nitrite (or nitrate).

So, when the Heterotrophic denitrifiers break down the Nitrate (that has the carbonate or bicarbonate attached to it) into nitrogen gas in the presence of organic carbon (the biopellet) the nitrate is broken down, over a series of processes to nitrogen gas, and alaklinity (carbonate or bicarbonates) are released.

This does not take into account pH however, which can be low, even when alkalinity is high, and is usually a cause of excess CO2 in the water from enhanced bacterial action consuming oxygen and releaseing CO2. of course, some work in oxygen free zones but as the bacteria breaks down in the water column this adds to oxygen load.
 

MavG

Member
Nov 8, 2011
120
43
Newcastle
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Ive seen this before.

I used to deal with Aquaculture systems technologies when i worked back at Aquasonic, i have used the Polygeyser filters in many applications and this research was actually being done a few years ago.

These guys got together with Tim Hovenec and a biopellet supplier to develop Dr Tims range of biopellets.

Good to see people picking up on this, should make for some interesting conversation.

If anyone has any questions i will help where i can as i am pretty familiar with the research and have done quite a bit of work with Bacterial supplements and organic carbon dosing in my time at Aquasonic and now.

Also, there is some information on bacteria and organic carbon doseing on ym blog as well.

Gareth
 

NiCd

Lead Moderator
Jul 29, 2011
4,296
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Sydney
So is the carbonate originating from filler material around the Polyhydroxyalkanoates?
 

MavG

Member
Nov 8, 2011
120
43
Newcastle
No it doesnt have anything to do with the biopellet.

It is taken up to process the ammonia and nitrite in the nitrification process, this bacteria does not gennerally (as far as we know) occur on the biopellet and occurs in your live rock, biofilter media etc.

So the carbonate and bi-carbonates are used in the nitrification process to turn the ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrate.

The carbonates and bi-carbonates used in this process are then liberated when nitrate is converted back to nitrogen gas as it is done by heterotrophic bacteria that use organic carbon, not inorganic carbon (which is carbonates, bicarbonates CO2 etc).
 

MavG

Member
Nov 8, 2011
120
43
Newcastle
i thought i would ellaborate on this:

waste is excreted by the fish in the form of;

1. solid waste that is broken down into ammonia by waste assimilating (mostly heterotrophic) bacteria AND
2. ammonia or urea

that ammonia is then taken by Autotrophic bacteria along with oxygen, and carbonate or bicarbonate and converted by oxidation into nitrite and CO2.

(autotrophic bacteria are bacteria that use INORGANIC carbon, such a carbonate and bicarbonate)

The resulting nitrite is then taken by another strain of Autotrophic bacteria (of which there are many) along with oxygen, and carbonate or bicarbonate and converted by oxidation into nitrate and CO2.

And there ends the Autotrophic bacteria's job, again, these guys adhere to substrates/biological media/live rock and use INORGANIC carbon, they dont float around in the water column and heterotrophic bacteria can. Heterotrophic bacteria will create biofilms and adhere to substrate as well, sometimes even smothering out nitrifying bacteria.

For reference, there are also Heterotrophic bacteria (those that use organic carbon) that can also digest ammonia and nitrite, but noweher near as effectively.

This nitrate, through the process of being digested/converted/oxidised by the autotrophic bacteria has had bicarbonate and carbonate bound to it, and therefore, when heterotrophic denitrifiers (such as bacillus denitrificans) take that nitrate, organic carbon and sometimes oxygen (sometimes not as denitrification will also occur in anerobic zones with little oxygen present, and these bacterias will not use oxygen for respiration), they digest it back into nitrogen gas, and spit out the carbonate and bi-carbonates consumed during the production of the nitrate during nitrification by the ammonia and nitrite oxidizing bacteria.

This is why finding the "sweet spot" in relation to flow and tumbling the biopellet is important. You want to create;

1. an environment with enough oxygen in most parts of the reactor so all the heteortrophic bacteria feeding on the organic carbon ( both aerobic/oxygen dependant and anerobic/oxygen non-dependant) have an enivronment that is tolerable to them i.e. just enough oxygen for the aerobic but not too much oxygen for the anaerobic
2. fast enough flow to effectively "sheer" the bacteria and the biofilms off of the outside of the pellet for harvesting by the protein skimmer, but not too fast that it either sloghs them off altogether or creates an environment too rich in oxygen for the anerobic bacteria to survive. NOTE: keeping a biofilm thin is called "biofilm control" and is a process used and applied in the application of MBBR's or moving bed bio-reactors such as filters using the Kaldnes media. the thinner the biofilm and the better it is controlled/exfoliated the younger the biofilm is, the younger the biofilm, generally the more effcient it is as when bacteria gets olders and biofilms get thicker, older bacteria does not do as good of a job as younger bacteria does, and thicker biofilms have trouble getting suffcient oxygen.
3. big enough reactor : System size : volume of biopellet ratio so that dwell time is sufficient to allow contact of waste products with the bacteria for efficient removal.
4. and of course, a big enough skimmer, this is the same as my theory that less is more when dosing bacteria into a liquid bacterial driven system using Vodka, VSV, NO3:PO4X or similar products, if you add to much at once, the bacteria go crazy and reproduce quickly, and without a skimmer big enough to remove the bacteria qucik enough, the bacteria die and break down into nutrient, compounding the problem. its the same with biopellet, if you create and sheer more bacteria that you can remove, the same thing will happen. For what its worth i also use a pro-bitoic bacteria with biopellet, and well as liquid based organic carbon driven systems.

Hope this clears this up a bit.
 
V

'vspec'

Guest
Awesome. Once I got used to the way you write, I enjoyed the read.