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[The Reefuge]

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EDIT: Someone at reddit started a good thread. Those who want to take some sort of action, please go to http://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/2hhjb9/ok_if_you_think_this_wont_do_anything_stfu_and/

Hello everyone,

This is an important event that has occurred and I would like us all to discuss it. It has nothing to do with reefing, but it is something that will impact all of us.

This country is getting worse and worse by the day. It is getting pulled apart piece by piece. I was going to go on about how corruption is destroying the country, but I came to a realisation... Corruption is actions done in secret behind closed doors to benefit the corrupt individual(s). It is done in secret... secret. What is happening now can't really be considered corruption can it? It is not actually done in secret. They are telling you, to your face. They are telling you they are taking your freedom away. They are telling you the reasons why they do things such as destroy the NBN. They are even telling you about bullshit scholarships. All you need to do is listen, forget, and go back to being a fucking drone.

The internet poses one of the greatest threats to our existence - Palmer United Party Senator Glen Lazarus

Of course, by "our" he does not mean you and me. He means those who control you and me. He means the powerful. He means the politicians. The internet is our only resource we have to get unfiltered information and to actually know what is going on in the world. They are going all out to put a stop to that. They want to know what you look at, when you look at it, who you called, how long you spoke for, etc.

They are using terrorism threats to scare us into obedience. They are using the media to prevent us from knowing important things and pushing their own agenda. They are lying to us. They are controlling and manipulating us. They are profiting off of us.

Oh, and in case you thought that there will be whistleblowers to keep them on their toes, you would be wrong. Now they can simply jail the whistleblower for speaking out against abuse of power.


Source

Regrettably, for some time to come, Australians will have to endure more security than we're used to, and more inconvenience than we'd like. Regrettably, for some time to come, the delicate balance between freedom and security may have to shift. After all, the most basic freedom of all is the freedom to walk the streets unharmed and to sleep safe in our beds at night. - Tony Abbott

He is telling us he is taking away our freedom as though it is nothing.
I don't know what to do. I don't know what we should all do. But there is one thing I do know, and that is people can only be pushed so far. Once they get pushed too far, they snap. I want us all to unite and make them remember that we are the ones holding the power. We seem to have forgotten that. I don't know how Australians will go about doing that, but getting angry and showing an emotion towards the state of things is a start.

 

[mscott]

Here here.
Although, here in vic, you can now be jailed for peacefully protesting anything! It has gone way too far and its only been one year since Tony and his goons have breached the doors of parliament.
Something needs to be done to the rich and "powerful", take away their money and you take away their "power". Everyone is the same, we all deserve the same rights and freedoms.
There is no reason why members of parliament need 6figure+ pay-checks, whilst the working class struggle to get buy.
In all honesty, i think its time for action. Nation wide i think its time to cast out these "CEO's" and start afresh. How many more people would be able to have jobs if the telstra CEO didn't get his 140mill paycheck. How many more people would be able to live better lives if the management weren't too busy lining their pockets with gold instead of giving it to the people who actually do the work.
And as for terror, what terror? Every man and his dog have the right and should have the courage to say that they want to blow up parliament after this moronic election.

 

[Kenneth]

I don't break the law will it affect me?

 

[RobbieMVFC]

This country is run by the Media , The Media intention was to bring in the LIBs only because they were going to kill off the carbon tax.
This government increased tax for the everyday Australians’ yet removed the tax for the mining magnates.
They also want to make it harder to get an education.
This government also wanted to remove the race hate laws for get this ...freedom of speech . We are talking about a group that won the election on a phrase like "Stop the boats "...
So the real question is do we blame the government or the people that believe the media and voted for them?
P.S The NBN under the coalition is like this ....
Imagine you have a high speed train and put it on the same rail lines as or current city trains.
once that train gets caught behind a city train its no better off.
I better shut up now.....rant over.

 

[Lesley]

I feel a but like Kenneth ! If I am not doing the wrong thing then I am not concerned. I don't want something happening in this country like the slaying murder of the British soldier because he chose to protect his country . I believe we are in a world where terror threats are very real and not fabricated by higher powers. We do need to keep an eye on people ( any people) that are doing the wrong thing, being it terrorism or child pornography. Are you also against those predators being watched. ? As a mother of two sons serving in the Australian military and seeing recent active service, I say if watching what we do. & say saves lives then let's do it. I don't want my sons having to go into another war zone, risking their lives, especially in our own country or anyone else's.

 

[mscott]

Now that right there is probably the biggest problem. "oh it's not my problem", "it doesn't affect me", "I'm not doing anything wrong". Really? Are you sure? What was to happen if you clicked on a website and a pop-up appeared taking you to pedofilic material. What if they start looking into your orders for your fish tank, the amount of chemicals we all buy would raise quite a few eyebrows, not to mention that some test kits contain solfuric acid. Would it affect you then?
This world is becoming hostile and inhospitable, the reason behind it is ourselves, going out every day and saying that anyone is a possible terrorist, creates an internal panic, whereby you treat everyone with hostility. Gone now are the days when you can walk around to your neighbours and ask for a hand with something. We are in reality creating our own terrors, yes there are extremists, and yes they do need to be caught, but breaching our civil liberties by recording our conversations and monitoring our activities is not the way to do it

 

[The Reefuge]

I don't break the law will it affect me?

I feel a but like Kenneth ! If I am not doing the wrong thing then I am not concerned. I don't want something happening in this country like the slaying murder of the British soldier because he chose to protect his country . I believe we are in a world where terror threats are very real and not fabricated by higher powers. We do need to keep an eye on people ( any people) that are doing the wrong thing, being it terrorism or child pornography. Are you also against those predators being watched. ? As a mother of two sons serving in the Australian military and seeing recent active service, I say if watching what we do. & say saves lives then let's do it. I don't want my sons having to go into another war zone, risking their lives, especially in our own country or anyone else's.

Okay, so here is the thing, and please note that I say this with complete respect to you and your children serving.

When I go to the toilet I close the door. I am not doing anything illegal.
When I am speaking on the phone to someone I go outside. I am not doing anything illegal.
When I have sex I do it with the curtains closed and the door shut. I am not doing anything illegal.
When I have medical treatment I keep it private. I am not doing anything illegal.

What I choose to keep private is my business. Some people may be more than happy to let the neighbour watch them get it on with their significant other and not be fussed. I am not one of those people. It is their right to allow people to watch, and it is my right to keep it private.

Now, with all of this information at someones fingertips, and I use the word someone literally, it gives a lot of control to that individual. Imagine I work for one of these organisations (and I may very well do so). I can see exactly what you have been up to for an extremely long period of time. I can see who your friends are, who you talk to, who you rang, what time you rang them and the duration of the call, where you have been, how long you were at a certain place, etc.

As an extremely basic example, let's say out of curiosity I look up how the most painless and effective way of killing someone/something is. I look it up and read about it, and think to myself "Cool, interesting". No harm done.

Now let's say a family member of mine dies and for some reason, the way they died was from suicide by ingesting some sort of poison. The poison I was reading about. Did I kill them? Absolutely not. But with all of this information they can say "Well, The Reefuge was actually looking up and reading about this poison on date x for a y duration of time. He is a huge suspect".

Now we all know that innocent people have been sent to prison with the laws as they are now - mistakes happen. Now imagine this plethora of false-positive "evidence" being used.

"The Reefuge was watching a documentary on Ted Bundy on "x" date. The documentary was "title" and it shows in detail what Ted Bundy did. On "y" date The Reefuge also read about "poison x". On date "z" The Reefuge's family member passed away by ingesting "poison x". We have evidence to believe that The Reefuge has violent tenancies....etc".

Now, that is assuming that the person with this information is not in any way manipulating it or trying to paint you in a bad picture. It is only stating facts. But as you can see, it already paints a terrible picture for The Reefuge with him being innocent.

Now imagine some new politician who is getting support for the Australian people. He has great intentions for the country and is causing problems for the corrupt. He is a single man who really wants to do good for the country.

Now, the current politicians see him as a major threat. So, let's go check what he was up to...

Date "a" - Watched hardcore pornography for the duration of 36 minutes.
Date "b" - Called "Highway Brothels" for the duration of 60 seconds.
Date "b' - Geolocated to be at "Highway Brothels" for 30 minutes.
Date "c" - Called doctor
Date "d" - Went to the doctor
Date "e" - Called ex-girlfriend and 1 other female.
Date "f" - Ex-girlfriend called 2 male friends and then called the doctor.
etc

It would be pretty easy to put a stop to his political ambitions if that private information was to leak out.




Child pornography -
This is the problem. Things like child pornography are horrible, terrible things and the people responsible should be taken on the street and shot (in my opinion). However, the internet that we all use known as the world wide web basically has extremely little child pornography. The way it works is too transparent to ever do anything as illegal and sickening without running the risk of getting caught.

Child pornography is distributed from other ways on the internet which do not really play a part in peoples use of the internet. Without going into too much technical detail, child pornography is only distributed on the darknet. That is to say it is on computers/servers that are not accessible from your normal internet. (Again, not entirely technically accurate, but I don't want to explain the whole darknet / lightnet thing).

In a nutshell keeping track of the populations metadata will not cut down, prevent or stop distribution of child pornography on the internet (darknet) in ANY WAY. At all. Ever.
It is simply being used as another excuse to allow those in charge to have more control over the people.

 

[RobbieMVFC]

Now that right there is probably the biggest problem. "oh it's not my problem", "it doesn't affect me", "I'm not doing anything wrong". Really? Are you sure? What was to happen if you clicked on a website and a pop-up appeared taking you to pedofilic material. What if they start looking into your orders for your fish tank, the amount of chemicals we all buy would raise quite a few eyebrows, not to mention that some test kits contain solfuric acid. Would it affect you then?
This world is becoming hostile and inhospitable, the reason behind it is ourselves, going out every day and saying that anyone is a possible terrorist, creates an internal panic, whereby you treat everyone with hostility. Gone now are the days when you can walk around to your neighbours and ask for a hand with something. We are in reality creating our own terrors, yes there are extremists, and yes they do need to be caught, but breaching our civil liberties by recording our conversations and monitoring our activities is not the way to do it

I use Randy recipe one where you have to bake the baking soda.
I roll it out on baking paper on tins and I think if one of my neighbours catches me they will think I am running a drug lab.lol

 

[Lesley]

The only reason they will chose to listen is if they are suspicious of you in the first place. If child pornography just popped up then you would be cleared because it's not downloaded, watched. & passed on but closed straight away. If your buying chemicals and you can prove it's for a fish tank or any other good reason then all good. ,rather that than have a bomb at the local rail station or event. Do you honestly believe they have the resources to listen to every single call & keystroke ? They are passing this to be able to track suspicious people like the 18 yr old in Melbourne, I can go to not just my neibhours but most the people in my street & ask for help. I am not hostile in anyway but unfortunately once again the minority have ruined it again for the majority . We have to realise that If Intel had been followed up 2 yrs before. 9/11 3000 people would not have lost their lives. If your not prepared to give up a little of our freedom to avoid a repeat then we are the selfish ones. !

 

[Lesley]

Okay, so here is the thing, and please note that I say this with complete respect to you and your children serving.

When I go to the toilet I close the door. I am not doing anything illegal.
When I am speaking on the phone to someone I go outside. I am not doing anything illegal.
When I have sex I do it with the curtains closed and the door shut. I am not doing anything illegal.
When I have medical treatment I keep it private. I am not doing anything illegal.

What I choose to keep private is my business. Some people may be more than happy to let the neighbour watch them get it on with their significant other and not be fussed. I am not one of those people. It is their right to allow people to watch, and it is my right to keep it private.

Now, with all of this information at someones fingertips, and I use the word someone literally, it gives a lot of control to that individual. Imagine I work for one of these organisations (and I may very well do so). I can see exactly what you have been up to for an extremely long period of time. I can see who your friends are, who you talk to, who you rang, what time you rang them and the duration of the call, where you have been, how long you were at a certain place, etc.

As an extremely basic example, let's say out of curiosity I look up how the most painless and effective way of killing someone/something is. I look it up and read about it, and think to myself "Cool, interesting". No harm done.

Now let's say a family member of mine dies and for some reason, the way they died was from suicide by ingesting some sort of poison. The poison I was reading about. Did I kill them? Absolutely not. But with all of this information they can say "Well, The Reefuge was actually looking up and reading about this poison on date x for a y duration of time. He is a huge suspect".

Now we all know that innocent people have been sent to prison with the laws as they are now - mistakes happen. Now imagine this plethora of false-positive "evidence" being used.

"The Reefuge was watching a documentary on Ted Bundy on "x" date. The documentary was "title" and it shows in detail what Ted Bundy did. On "y" date The Reefuge also read about "poison x". On date "z" The Reefuge's family member passed away by ingesting "poison x". We have evidence to believe that The Reefuge has violent tenancies....etc".

Now, that is assuming that the person with this information is not in any way manipulating it or trying to paint you in a bad picture. It is only stating facts. But as you can see, it already paints a terrible picture for The Reefuge with him being innocent.

Now imagine some new politician who is getting support for the Australian people. He has great intentions for the country and is causing problems for the corrupt. He is a single man who really wants to do good for the country.

Now, the current politicians see him as a major threat. So, let's go check what he was up to...

Date "a" - Watched hardcore pornography for the duration of 36 minutes.
Date "b" - Called "Highway Brothels" for the duration of 60 seconds.
Date "b' - Geolocated to be at "Highway Brothels" for 30 minutes.
Date "c" - Called doctor
Date "d" - Went to the doctor
Date "e" - Called ex-girlfriend and 1 other female.
Date "f" - Ex-girlfriend called 2 male friends and then called the doctor.
etc

It would be pretty easy to put a stop to his political ambitions if that private information was to leak out.




Child pornography -
This is the problem. Things like child pornography are horrible, terrible things and the people responsible should be taken on the street and shot (in my opinion). However, the internet that we all use known as the world wide web basically has extremely little child pornography. The way it works is too transparent to ever do anything as illegal and sickening without running the risk of getting caught.

Child pornography is distributed from other ways on the internet which do not really play a part in peoples use of the internet. Without going into too much technical detail, child pornography is only distributed on the darknet. That is to say it is on computers/servers that are not accessible from your normal internet. (Again, not entirely technically accurate, but I don't want to explain the whole darknet / lightnet thing).

In a nutshell keeping track of the populations metadata will not cut down, prevent or stop distribution of child pornography on the internet (darknet) in ANY WAY. At all. Ever.
It is simply being used as another excuse to allow those in charge to have more control over the people.

Think we will have to agree to disagree as we obviously have very different opinions. ! When you close the bedroom door to have sex or go to the toilet that's your choice. If a Neibhour happens to see either the consequences are embarrassment not death. & sorrow. I suppose I look at it very differently because of my 2 sons. Fact is that even. 3 yrs ago my sons were not able to wear uniform or dog tags on the street because of the abuse. & threat of violence they would encounter. Sad world really ! I am not saying I am right you are wrong we are just different and that's ok because it makes life interesting ! Appreciate an intelligent debate. Thanks. Looking forward to reading others peoples views. Very interesting.

 

[The Reefuge]

The only reason they will chose to listen is if they are suspicious of you in the first place. If child pornography just popped up then you would be cleared because it's not downloaded, watched. & passed on but closed straight away. If your buying chemicals and you can prove it's for a fish tank or any other good reason then all good. ,rather that than have a bomb at the local rail station or event. Do you honestly believe they have the resources to listen to every single call & keystroke ? They are passing this to be able to track suspicious people like the 18 yr old in Melbourne, I can go to not just my neibhours but most the people in my street & ask for help. I am not hostile in anyway but unfortunately once again the minority have ruined it again for the majority . We have to realise that If Intel had been followed up 2 yrs before. 9/11 3000 people would not have lost their lives. If your not prepared to give up a little of our freedom to avoid a repeat then we are the selfish ones. !

They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

They have data in which they can use to paint a picture of any individual in any light they like. This is extremely dangerous as it allows those in power to stay in power by manipulating information.

Child pornography is not just "popped up", please read my previous reply in regards to this. It is not something that is distributed on the WWW an thus can not be used as an excuse to increase security levels.

I should be able to buy whatever I like without worrying about being interrogated. How is that freedom if I need to justify actions as simple as purchasing stuff for my fish tank?

Yes, they have resources to listen to every call and keystoke. Please read and watch interviews by Edward Snowden who tells you exactly what they can and can not do.

9/11 is a completely different story for another time. But to give an answer to this point, in a blatant way as there is a lot more to it, they already knew of the threat without the need to spy on everyone. They chose to do what they did and as a result there was an unfortunate ending.

The amount of money systems like this will also cost us ultimately can be used for more beneficial things. If you get a chance, please take a look at the yearly death toll (over the last 50 years) in Australia due to terrorism. Then take a look at the yearly death toll in Australia due to cancer. It will be clear where funding should be going.

 

[Lesley]

They have data in which they can use to paint a picture of any individual in any light they like. This is extremely dangerous as it allows those in power to stay in power by manipulating information.

Child pornography is not just "popped up", please read my previous reply in regards to this. It is not something that is distributed on the WWW an thus can not be used as an excuse to increase security levels.

I should be able to buy whatever I like without worrying about being interrogated. How is that freedom if I need to justify actions as simple as purchasing stuff for my fish tank?

Yes, they have resources to listen to every call and keystoke. Please read and watch interviews by Edward Snowden who tells you exactly what they can and can not do.

9/11 is a completely different story for another time. But to give an answer to this point, in a blatant way as there is a lot more to it, they already knew of the threat without the need to spy on everyone. They chose to do what they did and as a result there was an unfortunate ending.

The amount of money systems like this will also cost us ultimately can be used for more beneficial things. If you get a chance, please take a look at the yearly death toll (over the last 50 years) in Australia due to terrorism. Then take a look at the yearly death toll in Australia due to cancer. It will be clear where funding should be going.

With regards to pop up child porn I was replying to someone's else's post. I appreciate your correction though. Yes stats on death toll to terrorism & cancer are not even worth comparing & I would like it to stay this way. & if giving up a bit of freedom does this then so be it. Agree to disagree. Lol.

 

[The Reefuge]

Think we will have to agree to disagree as we obviously have very different opinions. ! When you close the bedroom door to have sex or go to the toilet that's your choice. If a Neibhour happens to see either the consequences are embarrassment not death. & sorrow. I suppose I look at it very differently because of my 2 sons. Fact is that even. 3 yrs ago my sons were not able to wear uniform or dog tags on the street because of the abuse. & threat of violence they would encounter. Sad world really ! I am not saying I am right you are wrong we are just different and that's ok because it makes life interesting ! Appreciate an intelligent debate. Thanks. Looking forward to reading others peoples views. Very interesting.

Those who would abuse or threaten your sons are idiots and should simply be ignored. I say this with the absolute utmost respect, and please understand I am completely sincere.

Your sons are heroes. They put their lives on the line to protect the people who are otherwise unable to protect themselves. They put their lives on the line for the country they love, for the people they love, for their friends. It is honorable and admirable. They fight for our freedom so we don't end up waist-deep in shit.

The problem I have is the very same people who send your sons to fight for all of these things, are the same people who are chipping away at what they fight for. They fight for freedom, but those sending them to war are actively taking our freedom away. They fight for us to be able to live good lives, but those in power are making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Please do not think I am belittling what your children do, that is absolutely not my intention. I am upset because those who put other peoples children in harms way are the people destroying what those children are fighting to protect.

 

[mscott]

But is willingly giving that freedom worth it? It creates precedent, precedent that could be used to enact other civil rights abuses.
If anyone has watched the movie V for Vendetta, I think it gives a very good representation of what can happen, with one little slip up

 

[The Reefuge]

But is willingly giving that freedom worth it? It creates precedent, precedent that could be used to enact other civil rights abuses.
If anyone has watched the movie V for Vendetta, I think it gives a very good representation of what can happen, with one little slip up

Exactly, where does the line get drawn? Cameras in our houses and a curfew would surely be the best way to prevent any sort of terrorist attack. Even having cameras on us at all times. This is pretty much 100% perfect to stop any terror plans. 100% surveillance. It may be a mile away, but every time we inch towards it, it gets closer and closer. Where does their need for power end?

This is why it is so dangerous to give up our freedoms.

 

[gtrxu1]

Apparently this Glen Lazarus used to be a Rugby Player. A few too many hits to the head maybe?

Just like with the Patriot Act in the US our liberties are being taken away with the justification that its keeping us safe.

The difference is there are 300+ Million of them, its impossible to control them all. We are probably one of the most policed countries in the world due to our relatively low population.

And the hysteria coming from the media the last few days should be enough to make anyone question this whole thing.

/rant-over
Some very well written opinions etc above, i'll leave it to people way smarter than me.

 

[holly]

Terrifying this passed without an uproar.
I'll be working as a psychologist in the future and I frequently access extremely private, confidential information using online mediums. I know I'm not a terror suspect but by the new laws my clients' information could be compromised just on the basis of reasonable suspicion.
I'm beyond pissed at the progression of policy in Australia. The whole mental health field is reeling at the massive cutbacks to all services and potential further cuts to the NDIS.

Before the NBN destruction I could have started treating clients remotely through skype with beautiful high quality audio and video. I could assess children with severe disabilities to get help.

Scott Ludlham had been the only one with balls to ask the hard questions. I sincerely hope that this bullshit conservative madness runs its course by the next election.


With you @The Reefuge 100%
Internet unite!!!

 

[OSCAR85]

Well its done now. I hope that the information found is used correctly to shut down drugs, murders and terrorist. Hopefully it just saves more lives than does any damage. Only time will tell.

 

[The Reefuge]

Well its done now. I hope that the information found is used correctly to shut down drugs, murders and terrorist. Hopefully it just saves more lives than does any damage. Only time will tell.

Time has already told. It is too much power and can be easily abused. This is insane.

 

[Kenneth]

The only reason they will chose to listen is if they are suspicious of you in the first place. If child pornography just popped up then you would be cleared because it's not downloaded, watched. & passed on but closed straight away. If your buying chemicals and you can prove it's for a fish tank or any other good reason then all good. ,rather that than have a bomb at the local rail station or event. Do you honestly believe they have the resources to listen to every single call & keystroke ? They are passing this to be able to track suspicious people like the 18 yr old in Melbourne, I can go to not just my neibhours but most the people in my street & ask for help. I am not hostile in anyway but unfortunately once again the minority have ruined it again for the majority . We have to realise that If Intel had been followed up 2 yrs before. 9/11 3000 people would not have lost their lives. If your not prepared to give up a little of our freedom to avoid a repeat then we are the selfish ones. !

Absolutely spot on! My privacy is trivial compared to the consequences of turning a blind eye these days because the views and and actions of an extreme minority as you said extensive surveillance and sufficient evidence is needed not browsing taboo topics ;)