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Kenneth

Member
Dec 16, 2013
167
39
Time has already told. It is too much power and can be easily abused. This is insane.
I'm not convinced this power in real life affects law abiding citizens with all aspects of my life in their hands tell me what can they possibly do?

The Reefuge sucks. This whole place sucks! Death to the staff members!
 
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The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Absolutely spot on! My privacy is trivial compared to the consequences of turning a blind eye these days because the views and and actions of an extreme minority as you said extensive surveillance and sufficient evidence is needed not browsing taboo topics ;)
Until of course it is needed for taboo topics. Perhaps tainting someones public reputation in order to prevent them getting into a position that does not suit you. New Prime Minister candidate who is great for the country and the people? Nope, he looked at animal porn 3 times last week! What a sick bastard. Can't have him running the place.

It is a very dangerous thing we are playing with.
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
I'm not convinced this power in real life affects law abiding citizens with all aspects of my life in their hands tell me what can they possibly do?
Anything they like. Here is an example of what power above you can do. Check your post again. Now, the police around here (mods) will see what you wrote and ban you for it. Luckily this is only a forum and you will only get banned on the forum (you wont, I added a note that I edited it).

But it proves the point. I just set you up. Imagine this, but for stuff that matters. That is the power they are getting.
 

Kenneth

Member
Dec 16, 2013
167
39
Until of course it is needed for taboo topics. Perhaps tainting someones public reputation in order to prevent them getting into a position that does not suit you. New Prime Minister candidate who is great for the country and the people? Nope, he looked at animal porn 3 times last week! What a sick bastard. Can't have him running the place.

It is a very dangerous thing we are playing with.
Anything they like. Here is an example of what power above you can do. Check your post again. Now, the police around here (mods) will see what you wrote and ban you for it. Luckily this is only a forum and you will only get banned on the forum (you wont, I added a note that I edited it).

But it proves the point. I just set you up. Imagine this, but for stuff that matters. That is the power they are getting.
Until of course it is needed for taboo topics. Perhaps tainting someones public reputation in order to prevent them getting into a position that does not suit you. New Prime Minister candidate who is great for the country and the people? Nope, he looked at animal porn 3 times last week! What a sick bastard. Can't have him running the place.

It is a very dangerous thing we are playing with.
Not my keystrokes though and that's not confined to the net being physically set up the old fashioned way.
Do we have an alternative it has the potential to save many lives as unfortunate as it is to be in this predicament
 

OSCAR85

Member
Jan 8, 2013
1,529
792
St Kilda, Melbourne
Until of course it is needed for taboo topics. Perhaps tainting someones public reputation in order to prevent them getting into a position that does not suit you. New Prime Minister candidate who is great for the country and the people? Nope, he looked at animal porn 3 times last week! What a sick bastard. Can't have him running the place.

It is a very dangerous thing we are playing with.
i try not to worry about things that haven't happened yet. Its one of the reasons humans have so many phycological problems.

A good example is a zebra eating grass. Lion chases it but zebra gets away. Goes back to eating grass.

Human, gets chased by lion, gets away, still thinking about getting chased by lions for years… ends up getting hit by car cause was thinking about lions lol

Your reality is what you pay attention to.
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
Monitoring the internet is just another tool the government needs to help, they already have powers like the telephone taps that lead to prevention of some poor innocent being beheaded on the streets of Sydney.

Would you like those powers gone too ???

Remove governments genuine ability to gather accurate Intel and give those who would wish to do us harm an edge, your poorly misguided.

Efforts would be better devoted to outing those in power who abuse their positions IMO John Howard, Tony Blair and George Bush should be tried for crimes against humanity. The world current situation and so many lost lives is largely brought about by their miss information and falsely represented intel. You don't need special powers to make up a lie or to miss inform or miss lead the public.
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Monitoring the internet is just another tool the government needs to help, they already have powers like the telephone taps that lead to prevention of some poor innocent being beheaded on the streets of Sydney.

Would you like those powers gone too ???

Remove governments genuine ability to gather accurate Intel and give those who would wish to do us harm an edge, your poorly misguided.

Efforts would be better devoted to outing those in power who abuse their positions IMO John Howard, Tony Blair and George Bush should be tried for crimes against humanity. The world current situation and so many lost lives is largely brought about by their miss information and falsely represented intel. You don't need special powers to make up a lie or to miss inform or miss lead the public.
Right now as it stands, they have certain tools where individuals who are suspected of certain things can be monitored - with a warrent. A warrent is not an easy thing to get, so it is a safeguard.

With the new system, not only do they have access to a lot more information, but no warrent is required. Furthermore, it is illegal for someone to blow the whistle on wrong-doing by the corrupt.

And to add to it at the end, we all agree governments have corrupt people within them. So we are trusting people we don't know, who don't need to answer to anybody, who can legally abuse their power with our personal information.
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
I wonder if a 'corrupt' government official might bother if it were or were not legal at any rate?

I will sleep better at night knowing that if someone some ware in Au google's "how to make a pipe bomb". Subject to a warrant or not they might just awaken a little further investigation.

Furthermore, it is illegal for someone to blow the whistle on wrong-doing by the corrupt.
That may concern me, I don't know the detail of such legislation. However I wonder is this more to do with protection national secrete's and those who wish to disclose classified information publicly of our governments like Snowden and Sausage or whatever his name is.

Whistle blowing is one thing running to the media is another.

Also there there can be a difference in one persons and another's interpretation of 'wrong doing' vs a 'criminal act'. I would be very surprised if it were illegal to whistle blow on a 'illegal act of a government or official'.
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
I wonder if a 'corrupt' government official might bother if it were or were not legal at any rate?
Agreed

I will sleep better at night knowing that if someone some ware in Au google's "how to make a pipe bomb". Subject to a warrant or not they might just awaken a little further investigation.
To this I would ask you to check how many people have died in Australia due to 'terrorism'. By that I mean by the hands of a politcal radical who thought he was justified in killing people due to political or religious views. Go back as many years as you like.


As far as Snowden, he did seek to whistleblow to the correct authorities time and time again. Each time he was met with resistance. What he leaked was not dangerous to his country from outside countries. He was simply making his own countries population aware that the NSA was breaking their own laws.

When I return home I will post up the bill (our one) so you can read it yourself. The whistleblowing being illegal is extremely dangerous.
 

mscott

Member
Jan 2, 2012
1,416
271
Wheelers Hill
Nothing should be kept secret from the public, it's in our constitution.
In regards to the pipe bomb bit, how far will it go though? For all we know the next generation may need to do school projects on terrorism, some kids may want to look at it to see exactly how easy it is to make etc. But will it stop there? As it stands at the moment, year 10-12 history classes cover a lot about Nazism, a topic clearly seen as taboo by many, especially those in power, will those kids be subject to deeper searching? Kids make mistakes as we all know. But then who will get charged with the crime? The kid who searched it, or the law abiding parent who is sending them to school and getting them to do their homework?
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
To this I would ask you to check how many people have died in Australia due to 'terrorism'. By that I mean by the hands of a politcal radical who thought he was justified in killing people due to political or religious views. Go back as many years as you like.
Yes but circumstances have changed in recent weeks.

As far as Snowden, he did seek to whistleblow to the correct authorities time and time again. Each time he was met with resistance. What he leaked was not dangerous to his country from outside countries.
I don't pretend to know details of what Snowden did or who he contacted prior. Though the information he released was extremely damaging to our relationship with Indonesia, hence could have been very damaging to Australia.

WTF we were taping other countries leaders phone calls for is an issue. Circumstances of this incident and the information involved are not totally clear as to if it could have been justified or not.
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
Nothing should be kept secret from the public, it's in our constitution.
In regards to the pipe bomb bit, how far will it go though? For all we know the next generation may need to do school projects on terrorism, some kids may want to look at it to see exactly how easy it is to make etc. But will it stop there? As it stands at the moment, year 10-12 history classes cover a lot about Nazism, a topic clearly seen as taboo by many, especially those in power, will those kids be subject to deeper searching? Kids make mistakes as we all know. But then who will get charged with the crime? The kid who searched it, or the law abiding parent who is sending them to school and getting them to do their homework?
It is not illegal to search for information, you just might find your looked at a little more closely. Currently as it stands being a farmer and buying an odd amount of ammonia nitrate will equally attract some attention why should the internet be held sacred?

Lets face it censorship happens certain books, movies etc are not allowed into the country.
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
Yes but circumstances have changed in recent weeks.
Not really. The media has been feeding the fear into the public. You have a much, much, much, MUCH higher chance of being raped, killed during a robbery, or being the poor guy randomly killed in a random act of violence. This has all been happening for a very long time yet the media did not shove it in our faces over and over again. Why start spying now for a threat that is almost infinitely smaller than being raped or killed during a robbery?

It is not illegal to search for information, you just might find your looked at a little more closely. Currently as it stands being a farmer and buying an odd amount of ammonia nitrate will equally attract some attention why should the internet be held sacred?

Lets face it censorship happens certain books, movies etc are not allowed into the country.
It is not about the internet being held sacred. It is about being able to choose to keep certain things private. I do not wish to have who I talk to, when I talk to them, etc being available for individuals to view, use and abuse.

Censorship is also something I find stupid.

Read the bill. As you can see, they are extremely vague on almost everything. Things like "The internet is a network of networks" that they allowed to access, log, and MODIFY is insane. Since your computer is on its network, being on another network, etc, this leaves you open to damage.

Here is the bill if you would like to read it. I think you should.
 

holly

Member
Jul 10, 2013
1,806
832
Melbourne
For me this means I will just have to take more steps to protect my personal information.

Exposure of sensitive information in the media (you would hope) should be disclosed due to public interest and weighted by the damage it will cause. This is similar to any disclosure of private information that the governor general is asked to decide on.

The issue of trust is a tricky one. I would like to believe that the media and government can be trusted to a degree. History shows that accountability is an important balancing mechanism to 'keep the bastards honest'. Just look at the attempted moves to remove the media's independent watch dog in the name of 'removal of red tape'. I think that safeguards are in place to make sure that operations are following the laws upheld by the courts. You're in danger of removing the powers of the courts in the name of terrorism. Some good points in posts before me about developing cultures of fear based on this type of law-making.
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
I had a quick skim, not time at the mo to go through the act in entirety. I see it is an offence to disclose information you glean as an ASIO employee, is that what you are talking about? Lots of businesses and health professionals have similar conditions on their employment. It is not necessarily a total prevention on whistle blowing on illegal activities. They are saying your getting privileged and potentially sensitive / secrete information as an ASIO employee. I see it as quite justified to put a hush on ex/ current ASIO employee's as to the content of the agencies acquired intelligence.

I think the current danger relates to something more like preventing a Bali type bombing event on Australia's soil, I know lots of people touched by that in one way or another. Sure the chance is greater I will get run over by a car. But if the risk can be lessened why restrict ASIO's ability's i am sure they are not going to be interested in the details what your saying on the net. I find it difficult to understand how your concerned about privacy, like they are going to care about anything innocent you might say or look at.

I still think the internet is quite recent and legislation is still to catch up. Its such a great tool the authorities could use to help in preventing crime, lets face it the net is full of crime and scams. People who willfully try to con you of your dollars or load harmful programs to your computer. Plotting to create terror is only a small portion of what they should be doing. I think more power should be granted at an international level to rout out scamers and cyber criminals.
 

The Reefuge

Administrator
Jul 9, 2011
4,152
1,929
I had a quick skim, not time at the mo to go through the act in entirety. I see it is an offence to disclose information you glean as an ASIO employee, is that what you are talking about? Lots of businesses and health professionals have similar conditions on their employment. It is not necessarily a total prevention on whistle blowing on illegal activities. They are saying your getting privileged and potentially sensitive / secrete information as an ASIO employee. I see it as quite justified to put a hush on ex/ current ASIO employee's as to the content of the agencies acquired intelligence.

I think the current danger relates to something more like preventing a Bali type bombing event on Australia's soil, I know lots of people touched by that in one way or another. Sure the chance is greater I will get run over by a car. But if the risk can be lessened why restrict ASIO's ability's i am sure they are not going to be interested in the details what your saying on the net. I find it difficult to understand how your concerned about privacy, like they are going to care about anything innocent you might say or look at.

I still think the internet is quite recent and legislation is still to catch up. Its such a great tool the authorities could use to help in preventing crime, lets face it the net is full of crime and scams. People who willfully try to con you of your dollars or load harmful programs to your computer. Plotting to create terror is only a small portion of what they should be doing. I think more power should be granted at an international level to rout out scamers and cyber criminals.
A whistleblower is a person who outs wrong-doing within their organisation. So, as an example, let's say someone who was running this operation was using it for illegal reasons, as an example, they were using the information collected to only keep certain types of people in politics by swaying population opinion using the information. An employee finds out and let's us know. That employee can be jailed for their actions, even though they would be justified in releasing this information.

Again, it is not about being concerned about "If I am not doing anything wrong, why should I be worried?". I choose to keep certain things private and that is my right to do so. People died for me to have that right.

Also, the whole "If I am not doing anything wrong why should I be worried" argument has been used time and time again by politicians. Now, the problem is, is that they will not agree to a federal ICAC. In which case we can also say "If you are not doing anything wrong why should you be worried?". Yet, no federal ICAC is happening. I wonder why that is?
 

Oceanarium

Member
Nov 8, 2011
329
274
Perth
I looked at the bill in more detail, it seems whistle blowing is a loose term not used in the bill?

It is illegal to record and copy information (unauthorized) gleaned while acting as an ASIO agent. It ts a spy agency you find that surprising ? I am dumbfounded it was not already in the Act.