Reef Discussion
I noticed yesterday that the tile had slipped onto the sand, although the eggs were still on the right side and the parents were looking after them. I was going to move them back but got caught up doing other things and wasn't overly concerned about them.
This morning all the eggs are gone :( I suspect that they have been eaten by something else in the tank - the nass snails come to mind. They would have had ready access to them with the tile laying on the sand - the parents look a little confused...
This morning all the eggs are gone :( I suspect that they have been eaten by something else in the tank - the nass snails come to mind. They would have had ready access to them with the tile laying on the sand - the parents look a little confused...
Thanks Sarg - most of the hard work is now done with this batch. Feed as many times a day as I can and change some water every couple of days and they should be right to move on in another few months.
I have been loosing the occasional juvenile over the last couple of weeks - they seem to get weak and end up laying on their side on the bottom of the tank. They will get up and swim around for a while and then end up back on the bottom. This will continue for a few days before they eventually die. Not exactly sure why this is happening :confused:. It does not appear to be a bacterial problem as it is only affecting 1 or 2 fish at a time - maybe they just aren't developing as they should and are able to survive a bit longer than normal in the relatively protected environment that we provide for them.
Anyway, the parents aren't worried about all this - they laid another nest tonight :)
I definitely plan to cull any that appear to have deformities - @Dr. Schell has advised that clove oil can be used - it is a natural analgesic which knocks them out pretty quickly.
There has been a fair bit of discussion on a Facebook group I am a member of regarding this issue - some suggest that providing they are not in pain then it is OK to keep them as 'pets' whilst others suggest that we need to maintain a strong gene pool and, as we can't de-sex fish, then they must be culled.
I tend to agree with the culling side of the argument. However, it appears that misbars, for example, are the result of environmental conditions rather than genetics and there is no issue with keeping them.
Whilst I have done a bit of reading previously, I was planning to do some research on what the main deformities are and what to watch out for - I am aware of things like bulldog faces, gill flaring, missing fins etc.
As for mine - I have not culled any so far as they are still a bit small and move too quick to see how they are developing. I have a few misbars and suspect that a couple may have funny mouths but time will tell.
@holly, what cosmetic deformities are you referring too?
My somewhat limited understanding is that misbars are caused almost entirely by environmental issues - primarily the existance of ammonia during the larval stage. Significant levels of ammonia do not exist in the wild which is why, I think, wild misbars do not exist. I could be totally wrong on this so I will do some more research.
What I don't understand is how you differentiate between changes in colouration due to environmental issues and that due to genetics.
For example, the 'Naked Ocellaris' has been available for some time
Did this start out as a misbar that was bred with another misbar? But if misbars are environmental rather than genetic how could this happen ??
I need to do some more research I think :rolleyes
Culling in the wild happens all the time. Think about the number of eggs a pair of fish produce throughout their lifetime.
For a sustainable population, only 2(give or take) will survive (not taking into account losses due to "natural" events). Any more than 2 and they would over populate an area and struggle to find hosts, any less and the population is wiped out.
In nature, only the strong survive. A deformity such as a smaller tail may mean they swim slightly slower, leading to less food, etc.
I think the "misbars" could possibly be due to selective breeding - bred from parents with the traits you want to increase that trait. Happens in just about every other animal we humans have interfered with.
Congratulations! very well done.
As for you culling idea, It will be a bit of time before you notice any true deformities, almost all colour oddities in clowns are genetic. And often have no negative impact. Pigment and body structure development are similar but not the same. You will see many many perfectly formed clowns with bizarre pigment "deformities" yet functionally they are perfect, aesthetically depending on your views they are not. (Snowflakes, Platinum, Misbar)
On the other hand you may get specimens with perfect bars, pigment tones etcetc. but terrible face, fin and torso deformities. These are often linked to one or two things. Inbreeding, the first. With captive clowns its all to common to get pairs with identical or similar genetics. If they are wild however you'll be far better off. secondly the environment can play a huge role. Just as children while in the womb or early childhood can have adverse reactions to things, so can a fish. Often culprits are an excess of nutrients in the water which will negatively affect the bodies growing process by reacting with tissues and bones. Sometimes though there is more, if any aerosols or heavy produced substances make it into the water column its quite likely you'll have a structural deformity happen. Like clef lips in humans, A deformity that is because of the mothers contact with a particular gardening product. (from memory dont quote me! my brother has this)
I wouldn't cull based on incomplete pigment, this can be present until they are 5cm+ in length, rather embrace those. As they are how different demographic "morphs" often form naturally in the wild. Like Gold stripe, White Stripe, Lighting Stripe Maroon clowns. All the same fish with healthy body structure. Just different pigments.
As for you culling idea, It will be a bit of time before you notice any true deformities, almost all colour oddities in clowns are genetic. And often have no negative impact. Pigment and body structure development are similar but not the same. You will see many many perfectly formed clowns with bizarre pigment "deformities" yet functionally they are perfect, aesthetically depending on your views they are not. (Snowflakes, Platinum, Misbar)
On the other hand you may get specimens with perfect bars, pigment tones etcetc. but terrible face, fin and torso deformities. These are often linked to one or two things. Inbreeding, the first. With captive clowns its all to common to get pairs with identical or similar genetics. If they are wild however you'll be far better off. secondly the environment can play a huge role. Just as children while in the womb or early childhood can have adverse reactions to things, so can a fish. Often culprits are an excess of nutrients in the water which will negatively affect the bodies growing process by reacting with tissues and bones. Sometimes though there is more, if any aerosols or heavy produced substances make it into the water column its quite likely you'll have a structural deformity happen. Like clef lips in humans, A deformity that is because of the mothers contact with a particular gardening product. (from memory dont quote me! my brother has this)
I wouldn't cull based on incomplete pigment, this can be present until they are 5cm+ in length, rather embrace those. As they are how different demographic "morphs" often form naturally in the wild. Like Gold stripe, White Stripe, Lighting Stripe Maroon clowns. All the same fish with healthy body structure. Just different pigments.
Nice work with the breeding. I believe in culling, but that being said, I have retaiuned a pair of my 'abnormal' clowns. If you think of the fresh-water fish keeping hobbie, there are so many 'abnormal' strains that have become standard (think of all the strains of goldfish, balloon mollies, etc....). Provided that they are correctly 'selected' I see no issue in creating such strains, provided that they are clearly identified as such.
I am afraid I like my things as nature intended :)
I was reading about these Stubby Ocellaris which a few of the major breeders in the US are now selling - they have some missing vertebrae which gives them this appearance.
In my opinion, this is just wrong at every level.
And this story
http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/Mutant_Clowns_-_New_Hit_for_the_Nemo_Crowd
Why would anyone want to buy something like this :confused:
But, I am thinking about getting some snowflakes - do I have double standards or is there a line between physical deformities and colour morphs as @Henry G mentioned above??
I was reading about these Stubby Ocellaris which a few of the major breeders in the US are now selling - they have some missing vertebrae which gives them this appearance.
In my opinion, this is just wrong at every level.
And this story
http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/Mutant_Clowns_-_New_Hit_for_the_Nemo_Crowd
Why would anyone want to buy something like this :confused:
But, I am thinking about getting some snowflakes - do I have double standards or is there a line between physical deformities and colour morphs as @Henry G mentioned above??
Yeah In total agreement! nature can have colour morphs, and still be perfect. But promoting the sale and keeping of such severely deformed fish are ridiculous. I am the kind of person who find goldfish as terrible thing. Nothing other then a bunch of tanks full of purposely deformed mutants.I am afraid I like my things as nature intended :)
I was reading about these Stubby Ocellaris which a few of the major breeders in the US are now selling - they have some missing vertebrae which gives them this appearance.
In my opinion, this is just wrong at every level.
And this story
http://en.microcosmaquariumexplorer.com/wiki/Mutant_Clowns_-_New_Hit_for_the_Nemo_Crowd
Why would anyone want to buy something like this :confused:
But, I am thinking about getting some snowflakes - do I have double standards or is there a line between physical deformities and colour morphs as @Henry G mentioned above??
I can say id never be into buying those, as I have never supported any purchasing of wildly deformed fish or other animals. (Dogs being the exception)
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