Tank Journal Archive

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
Warning - Thought We Were Covered - We Were Not !
HI all,
This is just a warning, if you think your tank is protected you may not be.

We have 3 power board on our tank, an electrician, wired all three boards into 3 separate clipsal switches. So each board had a switch,
In theory if one piece of equipment failed or tripped, the clipsal associated with that particular board would flick and the other 2 power boards would continue to run.
We have a 2 heaters on separate boards, each gyer on separate boards and so on. So one board trips, tank will have heat and flow at all times. Until you notice and fix problem

photo.JPG


Went to bed last night, as usual sump light is on.
Get up this morning and no sump light, no temp gauge.
Suddenly realize tank is dead. Nothing running at all.
Switched lounge light on, purple and yellow tang are laying on their sides in the front corner of tank not moving.
All the corals are slime covered, slime every where.
I scream at hubby to grab generator. stupid really as the rest of the house had power. Panic reaction.
Hubby works out that 1 and only 1 of the clipsals has kicked in and flicked.
So we flick that back up, nothing, dead.
My fish are now panicked with light on in lounge, they are trying to swim away, bumping into rocks and clams, cant swim.
Please bear in mind its 5.30 in the morning, hubby half asleep.
He races outside in his jocks (yes in 2 degrees) and the fuse for the back of the house had tripped too.
This should not have happened.
So the whole back of the house had lost power but not the front were we sleep. So we had no idea tank was dead.
Got it running again, and only thing not working is return pump. It had blown that socket on the power board it was on.
We were lucky and did have a spare pump. had to use double adapter as the one socket was rooted.
We are now replacing that particular power board completely.
Tank was at 20 when switched back on.

When doser came back on, the clock said the power had gone out at 1.10am. so 4.5 hours.
Over the next few hours, fish picked back up and have all survived.
All corals are ok, some open some not but about 90% seem normal

So poor @Sam Parker got a very early message from me, asking if there was any way to avoid this happening again without running an apex.

YES there is a simple, cheap and easy way. NO i don't need an apex was his answer .
So Mr Parker is once again putting together a little device that will sms and sound an alarm if power is cut to the tank for any reason at all.
I honestly believe that our volume of water is what saved our corals and fish.

We now need to work out why our tank clipsal actually tripped the house fuse, that should not have happened.
We believe we had done everything possible to prevent this happening, but clearly not.
So I suggest if your worried about this possibly happening to you, ask @Sam Parker

Sorry Sam !!! (about early wake up too )
And thank you too !!!! :)
 

Sam Parker

Moderator
May 6, 2013
4,802
2,397
Geelong
I wouldn't mind getting another sparky to check out your clipsal fuses to see what happened, but either way - there is a basic and cheap solution to give more notice next time. It's something I setup a while ago now (about 16 months) and is still going strong:

http://thereefuge.com/threads/35-or-less-power-outage-notifier.8833/

Old spare (or cheap new) android phone, $6 app and a $15 a year aldi prepaid SIM card and your done. If power goes out, it will sound an alarm and also send you a text message. Plug it into same power source as your tank and leave it there. Pop a reminder in your calendar to recharge in 365 days. Number of times it has saved me has been huge. I've had power trip at tank twice (not always obvious as tank has its own circuit) but also peace of mind when away from home and the power goes off where you are (we lose power at work now and then, I only work 4mins from home so it has me guessing about the tank each time!)

Doesn't rely on battery backup (the phone itself is the battery backup!) doesn't rely on Internet (which isn't usually working when power is out) and can even send you another message when power is restored (timeline is completely configurable).

I recommend them for every fish tank - but especially our beloved reef tanks.

I'll be sourcing a phone for @Lesley this week and setting up for her to be plug-and-play. Happy to do so for anyone else on here at the same time :)

Sam
 

Rob

Member
Apr 26, 2012
743
424
On the front of the circuit breaker there is a current trip rating, better check what ampere rating the breakers are in the tank ver switchboard.

If the breakers are indeed lower tripping current than the main breaker for the back half of the house then I would suggest its the breaker characteristics. Although a breaker maybe rated to trip say at 10 Amps they also have individual trip characteristic (time delay). They use this rating (i.e. trip curve) to account for inrush current. Example turning on a switch mode power supply the inrush current maybe 10~20 x that of normal operation, however only for a few milliseconds thus the breakers tolerance for higher currents for this very short period of time is selected via its trip curves.

So what is the rating of
the house breaker
the breaker used in your tank distribution board
did the thermal trip (little red button) on the power board also trip ?
 

Buddy

Member
Mar 13, 2012
3,142
1,526
I wouldn't mind getting another sparky to check out your clipsal fuses to see what happened, but either way - there is a basic and cheap solution to give more notice next time. It's something I setup a while ago now (about 16 months) and is still going strong:

http://thereefuge.com/threads/35-or-less-power-outage-notifier.8833/

Old spare (or cheap new) android phone, $6 app and a $15 a year aldi prepaid SIM card and your done. If power goes out, it will sound an alarm and also send you a text message. Plug it into same power source as your tank and leave it there. Pop a reminder in your calendar to recharge in 365 days. Number of times it has saved me has been huge. I've had power trip at tank twice (not always obvious as tank has its own circuit) but also peace of mind when away from home and the power goes off where you are (we lose power at work now and then, I only work 4mins from home so it has me guessing about the tank each time!)

Doesn't rely on battery backup (the phone itself is the battery backup!) doesn't rely on Internet (which isn't usually working when power is out) and can even send you another message when power is restored (timeline is completely configurable).

I recommend them for every fish tank - but especially our beloved reef tanks.

I'll be sourcing a phone for @Lesley this week and setting up for her to be plug-and-play. Happy to do so for anyone else on here at the same time :)

Sam
I have my spare old HTC ONE X sitting here for a long time for this exact purpose and I completely forgot to set it up! Thanks for the reminder :D
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
On the front of the circuit breaker there is a current trip rating, better check what ampere rating the breakers are in the tank ver switchboard.

If the breakers are indeed lower tripping current than the main breaker for the back half of the house then I would suggest its the breaker characteristics. Although a breaker maybe rated to trip say at 10 Amps they also have individual trip characteristic (time delay). They use this rating (i.e. trip curve) to account for inrush current. Example turning on a switch mode power supply the inrush current maybe 10~20 x that of normal operation, however only for a few milliseconds thus the breakers tolerance for higher currents for this very short period of time is selected via its trip curves.

So what is the rating of
the house breaker
the breaker used in your tank distribution board
did the thermal trip (little red button) on the power board also trip ?
Wow, thank you. will get hubby to check all this info tomorrow.
No the power board button did not trip ?
Is this significant ?
 

Rob

Member
Apr 26, 2012
743
424
"No the power board button did not trip" I probably would of guessed that, so much for these things protecting the overall circuit ! again its a trip time delay with power board thermal breaker.

On the front (just under the switch) of the breaker there will be a number followed by "A" this is the trip current in amps. You should NOT have to touch or remove the breaker to see this.

Im pretty sure you will find the 3 breakers in your tank should be <10A each and the main breaker 16A or higher.
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
"No the power board button did not trip" I probably would of guessed that, so much for these things protecting the overall circuit ! again its a trip time delay with power board thermal breaker.

On the front (just under the switch) of the breaker there will be a number followed by "A" this is the trip current in amps. You should NOT have to touch or remove the breaker to see this.

Im pretty sure you will find the 3 breakers in your tank should be <10A each and the main breaker 16A or higher.
ok,
The tank Clipsal Switches.
photo (2).JPG


The house fuse clearly says 16A.
Thanks for all your help ?
 

Rob

Member
Apr 26, 2012
743
424
It's late but a quick look shows these are 16amp breakers....the same rating as in your house switchboard. So the house main 16A will probably always trip prior to these 3 off 16A at the tank. The main (rear) house breaker obviously carries the entire load of all outlets, thus it's always a lot closer to the 16A trip rating.

So at your tank these do nothing really for protecting current HOWEVER looks like they are also an RCD which is great. Not knowing the wiring I think these are way over rated as your power boards are probably only rated to 10A anyway. I don't like giving 240VAC advice, others may like to chime in here... or seek advice from a qualified electrician... who did the wiring ? at least these breakers do more good protecting you form being electrocuted... Although strange you don't have earth leakage detection at your main switchboard.

You could also just leave it as is, knowing Sam will help with an sms alert
 
Last edited:
E

ezza

Guest
We have our fish tank on the side of the house that's also running things like the washing machine and dryer. We found out that you can't run both of those with the dishwasher because the power blows due to the load placed on the whole house by the tank. I noticed there are two safety switches in the fuse box that go at the same time. I started to wonder how realistic it might be to have a separate fish tank switch installed- I assume that would necessitate specific wiring though. I did have my art studio wired individually with a mini board. It cost me about $1000 to do (it was a fairly big job that I dug a 13m long trench for). Does anyone know if installing a new safety switch/isolating fuse thingy in your powerboard is something that would cost "a certain amount"? I might enquire with the sparky. I hate tripping the power. I hate using so much power that I cause this kind of issue- but I don't know a better way to go.
 

ReeferRob

Solidarité
Oct 22, 2014
2,661
931
Bel Air
Is there anything else on the circuit that could have tripped the main? If the main tripped, that's why the ones on the tank didn't trip. If there's something else on that line it needs to be investigated as the culprit.
 

Lesley

Member
Apr 2, 2013
2,086
1,079
Is there anything else on the circuit that could have tripped the main? If the main tripped, that's why the ones on the tank didn't trip. If there's something else on that line it needs to be investigated as the culprit.
No. Nothing else on those boards or switches. The 1 switch did trip ( not the other 2) main house tripped at the same time cut power to whole tank. I think @Rob has explains what happened. So need to get device from Sam Parker & electrician to come & look at how we can change the while switch thing !!!!
 

Sam Parker

Moderator
May 6, 2013
4,802
2,397
Geelong
We have our fish tank on the side of the house that's also running things like the washing machine and dryer. We found out that you can't run both of those with the dishwasher because the power blows due to the load placed on the whole house by the tank. I noticed there are two safety switches in the fuse box that go at the same time. I started to wonder how realistic it might be to have a separate fish tank switch installed- I assume that would necessitate specific wiring though. I did have my art studio wired individually with a mini board. It cost me about $1000 to do (it was a fairly big job that I dug a 13m long trench for). Does anyone know if installing a new safety switch/isolating fuse thingy in your powerboard is something that would cost "a certain amount"? I might enquire with the sparky. I hate tripping the power. I hate using so much power that I cause this kind of issue- but I don't know a better way to go.
I had my tank put on it's own circuit for much less than that, granted my sparky mate did it for cost though.It is good and bad, means nothing else in the house can trip the tank - but if the tank does trip, it's not quite as obvious (hence the need for the SMS notifier!) Here are some details of my dedicated circuit install:
http://thereefuge.com/threads/more-electrical.9886/

Also came across this link, where my SMS power outage notifier saved my tank from being without power for about 12 hours (I was in a rush to get out the door for a long day of work, being the morning wouldn't have noticed the tank as lights are off anyway - LUCKY!)

@Lesley - sounds like Rob is spot on with the breakers being the same rating as the one on the house, always going to blow them first. Should be an easy fix for the sparky. Hopefully I'll get a chance to duck out and buy you a phone and sim card today. Get it in the mail late this week for you to plug in next week :D
 

Rob

Member
Apr 26, 2012
743
424
Just remember the cct breakers you have installed in your tank are a combo breaker (trips on over current) and an RCD (which detect faults i.e. you are being electrocuted and trips off the power), they must of been expensive. If you do not have an overall RCD in your house switchboard talk with someone about not only having three independent circuits but how you can protect yourself. Problem with being electrocuted you don't need to draw much current so a normal circuit breaker does not protect you.

Your combo breaker/RCD will trip on two states:

1. More than 16 amps
or
2. it detects an imbalance between active and neutral of 0.03 Amps. this is what protects you from shock hazards. You can see you need very little current to shock you compared to the 16A it trips on over current.
 
Apr 10, 2014
54
11
It's late but a quick look shows these are 16amp breakers....the same rating as in your house switchboard. So the house main 16A will probably always trip prior to these 3 off 16A at the tank. The main (rear) house breaker obviously carries the entire load of all outlets, thus it's always a lot closer to the 16A trip rating.

So at your tank these do nothing really for protecting current HOWEVER looks like they are also an RCD which is great. Not knowing the wiring I think these are way over rated as your power boards are probably only rated to 10A anyway. I don't like giving 240VAC advice, others may like to chime in here... or seek advice from a qualified electrician... who did the wiring ? at least these breakers do more good protecting you form being electrocuted... Although strange you don't have earth leakage detection at your main switchboard.

You could also just leave it as is, knowing Sam will help with an sms alert
From what I understand from reading this, Rob has hit the nail on the head. You don't have the protection of "cascading". Your upstream breaker should ideally be larger (current rating) than the breakers it feeds downstream. Without knowing the size/configuration of the wiring it is hard to offer advice.

As Rob has mentioned those power boards are only going to be rated at 10A total loading so ideally the 3 RCD's under the tank should/would be 10A or less instead of 16A. The Circuit breaker at the switchboard feeding the RCD/CB's under the tank is 16A, this could potentially be upgraded to a 20A depending on the size of the cabling installed and the route length. Even in this scenario you still have the potential (although highly unlikely) of 30A (each circuit board with 10A circuit breaker under the tank) being drawn on the overall circuit from the SB and this would result in the 20A circuit breaker in the switchboard tripping out (over current).


One thing I don't agree with is changing the breaker in the switchboard to be an RCD type combo breaker. This will likely create nuisance tripping and the same result as today. When you use one RCD to feed another downstream, if a current imbalance happens in the furthest point in the circuit it will almost certainly result in both RCD's tripping.

Hope this makes sense (it doesn't read the best)
 
I wouldn't mind getting another sparky to check out your clipsal fuses to see what happened, but either way - there is a basic and cheap solution to give more notice next time. It's something I setup a while ago now (about 16 months) and is still going strong:

http://thereefuge.com/threads/35-or-less-power-outage-notifier.8833/

Old spare (or cheap new) android phone, $6 app and a $15 a year aldi prepaid SIM card and your done. If power goes out, it will sound an alarm and also send you a text message. Plug it into same power source as your tank and leave it there. Pop a reminder in your calendar to recharge in 365 days. Number of times it has saved me has been huge. I've had power trip at tank twice (not always obvious as tank has its own circuit) but also peace of mind when away from home and the power goes off where you are (we lose power at work now and then, I only work 4mins from home so it has me guessing about the tank each time!)

Doesn't rely on battery backup (the phone itself is the battery backup!) doesn't rely on Internet (which isn't usually working when power is out) and can even send you another message when power is restored (timeline is completely configurable).

I recommend them for every fish tank - but especially our beloved reef tanks.

I'll be sourcing a phone for @Lesley this week and setting up for her to be plug-and-play. Happy to do so for anyone else on here at the same time :)

Sam
What's the app @Sam Parker ? Tasker?