Water Circulation

Discussion in 'Large Reef Tanks' started by Jacques Pels, Apr 30, 2017.

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  1. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    I will try this, and hope it is the right venue for this topic ??
    Jac
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  2. Andrew B

    Andrew B Member

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  3. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    Nicely done!

    Ok, now some feedback.

    1. Why is your tank plan a drop off style? That adds massive complexity, risk and cost. Especially in a tank this size.

    2. What DC pumps are you using for return? They'll need to be something fairly industrial size to flow enough volume from the basement. Perhaps the ultra expensive abyzz pumps?

    3. Your tank dimensions are quite tall. Are you comfortable working on a tank that tall? Any plans on how to reach the bottom?

    4. As for in tank flow, what sort of reef are you aiming for? As in, what type of coral? That will determine a lot of your flow requirements.

    Cheers,
    Sam
  4. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    Where did you see plans on this Sam? I have seen to footprint and been itching to see what this is all about
  5. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    @NiCd - Jacques was posting a lot of info in Lesley's plumbing journal entry. I've attached a diagram of the tank now. Looks as if you are going the drop off style just to create a low point for the closed loop. Just so you know, this is totally not required and will create all sorts of complications with the build. Aquarium specs.jpg
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  6. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    Not to mention that the drop off section will be 1.2m deep.......
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  7. macca_75

    macca_75 Member

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    I do wonder how a Maxspect would go if not near the surface?

    Certainly (although not common here in Aus) something like the Tunze MasterStrem 6508 would be more than big enough for flow. You'd want a couple of them for varying the flow source and that's going to be expensive. The Larger Streams (6205) may be OK - esp if setup as a peninsula/gyre

    For the return, does the return need to be DC? Not sure of the head height, but a Laguna 11,000 certainly packs some punch and is ultra reliable.
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  8. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    Laguna's will do a max head height of 4.7m (for the 16,000lph) model, I haven't seen a curve yet, but I reckon at about 3m head height it would be down to a bit of a trickle.

    The abyzz A400 whilst not a cheap pump, has a lifetime warranty and will flow 18,600 lph of water max, but at 3m of head height will still flow about 14,000lph and is DC controllable. Can also run submerged or externally, not sure if the laguna can run externally?
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  9. macca_75

    macca_75 Member

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    1 x 0 makes a bigggg difference @Sam Parker .....

    I know I used to use an Onga Saltwaer spa pump to "lift" water from the drums into my tank. It would handle and flow and any head (without being scientific) but would also be expensive to run 24x7 and I'm not sure how it would hold up to constant use.
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  10. macca_75

    macca_75 Member

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  11. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    For basement sumps most guys run a pair or so of the iwaki and panworlds, they chew the power but run forever, are comparatively cheap and have significantly less headloss.

    I have never seen the abyzz pumps in person but they look like the ducks nuts.
  12. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    Iwaki and panworlds are certainly a good option but as said above - will chew the power big time.

    An Onga pump of suitable specs wouldn't be cheap either (for continuous use, you wouldn't want the cast iron housings) and will run around 2400w.

    Abyzz, whilst expensive upfront, can do amazing things. Will vary power between 4w-400w, provide a HEAP of flow and head height and also can have modes which are great for closed loop. Plus you know, it's indestructible :p
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  13. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Wow,
    thanks for all the response and feedback guys.
    Have been prepping the final plumbing, and leveling for the steel and form works this week, and everything set for the pour of slab on Saturday. !
    Let me try to respond to you first Sam :-

    1. Why is your tank plan a drop off style? That adds massive complexity, risk and cost. Especially in a tank this size.
    JP - to be frank, the drop off is for the effect of depth on the front viewing panel. Because of its location, this 1100mm short panel is already imposing, and the step-down will give the depth effect. I have seen several others, but with a step down of 400 to 700mm, but that becomes too impractical in the maintenance. The tank builder, Rob, is confident this step-down can be achieved, and is also going to build the steel stand, which will need to be done precisely.

    2. What DC pumps are you using for return? They'll need to be something fairly industrial size to flow enough volume from the basement. Perhaps the ultra expensive abyzz pumps?
    JP - I am working with my pool guy on the plumbing and pumps. He has assured me the DC pumps we will use, can more than handle the head and flow rates we need. This ia also why we have gone throughout with the bigger pipes I sent you images of last week The overflow is 3x 50mm, to the sump, (Durso ) and 1x 50mm returning from sump, through the overlow floor and through a 4 way manifold to the tank.
    The Closed Loop will run on a separate pump. It will take water from the tank, from 2 40mm intakes at the riser of the step down, then join into one 40mm to the basement sump, and then pumped back to the tank with 1 x 50mm through the over flow box floor, to the water surface, through an
    Actuator to control left/right, or both, then split into a left
    and right 20mm pipe each side of the tank along the Euro
    brace line, with several duckbill spouts, each with its own gate value.


    3. Your tank dimensions are quite tall. Are you comfortable working on a tank that tall? Any plans on how to reach the bottom?
    JP - the plan still show 900 tank height, but will probably go to 850mm... know from 20 years with a 800 deep tank, that it is an issue, but in this build I will have 1100 width, and have better access to the deeper areas.. or so I think.

    4. As for in tank flow, what sort of reef are you aiming for? As in, what type of coral? That will determine a lot of your flow requirements.
    JP - in a nut shell - what you have. A mix of LPS and SPS - this is why I am so concerned to design in enough flexibility in the water circulation flow rates and directional control.

    Guys, this is the concept. As I said yesterday, I want to do a reality check on myself, before i pull the trigger on this, so am open to practical suggestions and comments.
    Jac

  14. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    Is it right that the 400w abyzz are $10k per pump though? that buys a lot of power or even solar panels to run the pumps

    JP- is there any reason you can't go straight through at 1100 high and then make up a stand/enclosure further back and create like a cryptic zone/fuge at the lower rear section? seems it would be more practical to build, stronger and give you added 700l water volume along with the added support of the fuge?
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  15. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    NiCd, if i understand you correctly, what you mean is create an overall 1100 deep tank, then add a false bottom, or step for the 2100 length, to give the illusion of the step down ?
  16. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    They run at $3k-$4k. Certainly not cheap, but a system of this calibre with a sump a level below is going to want a reliable pump.

    I'd be concerned about a pool pump not leaching any undesirable heavy metals into the water
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  17. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Sam,
    when I asked the same question, I was told pool pumps, even though pretty industrial, they will give us the volumes we need, and are used in pools wherein 90% are salt water ? All parts are plastic or coated.. is this a viable concern for salt water Aquariums, as opposed to pools ?
    Jac
  18. Sam Parker

    Sam Parker Moderator

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    Pools maybe salt water, but they don't grow coral...
  19. Jacques Pels

    Jacques Pels Member

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    Hahaha.. touche...
    Ok, accepted, but are the moving parts of a pool pump, in contact with water, a potential source of leaching ??
  20. NiCd

    NiCd Lead Moderator

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    If you were just having sharks or something I would just use pools pumps but I share Sams concerns, there are plenty of pumps that are rated for saltwater that is not reef safe, for the small cost difference in comparison to livestock loss I would not risk it.

    And yes essentially create a false bottom over the section to create an illusion of a step-down
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