Reef Discussion

[Azza.12]

Evening all,

Was having a chat with my LFS, and they are toying with stocking a new product - the Ocean Free Hydra Internal Filter. They are trialling it on one of their tanks with a fair amount of skepticism, as this thing has some pretty bold claims. It claims to generate hydroxyl radicals to oxidise all manner of waste products in the water, and replace all other filtration equipment to act as an "all-in-one" unit for salt water system.

Having a quick look over the packaging and manual, there is precious little explanation of how this thing works, except some magic catalytic material and the application of a small electric current. Can't help but scratch my head over this one, and was curious to see if anyone had heard of this unit here? Any evidence that it is effective? Any clue as to the chemistry behind the unit?

Hope everyone had a brilliant weekend!
Cheers,
Azza.

 

[holly]

From chemist boyfriend: catalytic material = 'stuff' (their secret for creating this reaction) attached to two electrodes inside the water where the electric current will be trying to go between. The current it generates will be 'ripping' apart water molecules. Those water molecule fragments (hydroxyl radicals, or reactive oxygen) will then attach to organic materials (ammonia, food waste, poop, but not nitrate or phosphate as they can't easily hold anymore oxygen in their structure) and thus reduce the overall nutrient content of the water. It would also most likely kill any living material in the water that passes through it. Effectively this is very similar to ozone dosing in intent but better targeted and perhaps less risky.

Theoretically, over time you would expect that phosphate and nitrate would be reduced because the things that produce them don't have as much ammonia and phosphate to feed off (water changes would be the main reducer). This wouldn't remove the need for a skimmer as skimmers remove the bulky particles. This new filter would be ideal as the second phase after a skimmer so it doesn't get overloaded and clogged with organics.

 

[MagicJ]

@holly - what happens when the hydroxyl radical attaches to the ammonia molecule ?? It must turn into something else which would then need to be removed from the system ??

 

[holly]

I am not totally sure - my boyfriend said the coating on the catalytic material would cause the reaction.(and we don't know what's in the catalytic material but it would make the process of ripping up organics to consume easier some how).

There would be build up in the unit of some sort of waste by product which you would eventually have to clean out. Anything leftover still living is likely to be killed/vapourised/consumed when it passes through that electrified area as well. There will be very little by product.

The process: essentially the radicals would take the oxygen from the ammonia etc as organics have lots of it. I'd have to get him to go and study the ins and outs of water chem to explain it fully. The process is similar to that used within water treatment plants, first they skim by addition of chemicals and scooping the crap out, then they pass it through a similar mechanism to kill anything left over that was too small to be skimmed out.

I was getting a bit dizzy trying to interpret all that he was talking about. Essentially he said it sounds legit as this technology has been around since the 1950s-70s and is well used. This is compared to our testing kit methods which hail back to the 1800s.

 

[Joele]

I guess the question for me then is; are their beneficial things it is also removing?

 

[holly]

I guess the question for me then is; are their beneficial things it is also removing?

I'd guess like a skimmer you're removing plankton that you add (phyto or reef roids). The water parameters will be more stable as the unit runs therefore keeping your corals healthier. Any pods that get sucked into this unit will fry but those buggers breed like rabbits anyway on your rock.

I don't know of any downsides really. Adding this unit at any stage of the tank cycle would still allow establishment of bacteria in the rock, but you wouldn't get too much excess nutrients so wouldn't go through the huge swings of the cycle. However, with a power failure later on with a tank full of fish and corals I'd imagine your system would not cope well with the sudden increase in bioload. Perhaps that's a downside?

 

[Azza.12]

Thanks very much for your feedback @holly. I must admit I was exceptionally skeptical about the whole thing but if there is some legit chemistry behind it, who knows. I'm keen to see the results of my local aquarium's trial. My assumption is the hydroxyl radicals will rip hydrogen off of organic compounds and ammonia to form water, and the remaining organic/nitrogenous radical will react with oxygen to form things such as nitrites/nitrates/less toxic organics.

 

[holly]

Thanks very much for your feedback @holly. I must admit I was exceptionally skeptical about the whole thing but if there is some legit chemistry behind it, who knows. I'm keen to see the results of my local aquarium's trial. My assumption is the hydroxyl radicals will rip hydrogen off of organic compounds and ammonia to form water, and the remaining organic/nitrogenous radical will react with oxygen to form things such as nitrites/nitrates/less toxic organics.

There is legit technology that's been around a while behind it but how it works in an aquarium? Like you I'd have to see!

 

[MagicJ]

Worth a read :)
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=5376
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=5376

 

[Agent M]

Any updates to be had on this product anyone? I'm still to find anyone using it and most of the LFS in Melbourne I've spoken to sell it but haven't tried it out. We still need a guinea pig!

 

[ReeferRob]

Sounds like a little box of electrical snake oil to me M. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. ;)

 

[Agent M]

I just wish the shops would try them out like some of them have been meaning to! I'm not willing to pay for the privilege of something that is an unknown to most of us in the hobby. But I would like to see a trial done and the results made available.

 

[Buddy]

I know someone who has been using one for about 7 months now, unfortunately he is an "lfs only" person and won't visit any of the forums.
Anyways he has a red sea tank. I am not sure of the model but it looks around 3x2x2. He had phos and nitrate problems and his lfs talked him in to one of these. He reckons he hasn't had a problem with nutrients since. But he is also running bio pellets and skimming, so who knows...

 

[Agent M]

Hmmm....I know of an LFS that was thinking of putting one on one of his display tanks, but he also doesn't like to go on forums. I might follow up and see if he'll share his findings.

 

[VaultBoy]

This is an interesting bit of kit! I would like to know how it effects the pH in a tank. pH is the ratio of hydroxyl ions and oxygen ions in a solution. If this thing is generating these ions and they are not being consumed evenly then it will drive pH up or down. If they are being used successfully then this may not be an issue but I would like to know the chemistry...

 

[Agent M]

Sounds like you should try one out @VaultBoy ;)

I'm thinking it could be a good substitue for carbon and it doesn't need to be changed out as frequently so there's the convenience and stability factor. I haven't used carbon all these years because when I did try it a couple of times, I saw an instant negative reaction in my soft corals, particularly xeniids so I pulled it immediately. So all up I'd say I've used activated carbon for 2 hours in the last 7-8 years :D

I am thinking there may be a place for a Hydra filter if it works. Only thing I don't like about them is they apparently give false readings on test kits.

 

[VaultBoy]

Sounds like you should try one out @VaultBoy ;)

http://thereefuge.com/marketplace-au/tank-shut-down-its-all-gotta-go.487/ :( Maybe you could find a restart for me ;)

I am thinking there may be a place for a Hydra filter if it works. Only thing I don't like about them is they apparently give false readings on test kits.

Is there any kind of work around for this? My limited understanding of chemistry tells me that this would be due to ions/compounds that are not usually found in tank water that trick the test kits. The producer of this bit of kit should (maybe?) be able to produce a test kit that shows how this thing is working. Otherwise its kinda just taking their word for it...

 

[Agent M]

Unfortunately the primary issue I can see with this product is there is a language barrier so its very difficult to get answers to questions and the business has not taken steps to overcome this in English speaking countries.

 

[VaultBoy]

@Agent M My post was supposed to say fund a restart not find... Sucks when you have to explain a joke...