Reef Discussion

[RobbieMVFC]

So for years now I have been trying to understand the importance of all the elements required in a reef tank and more so their importance on corals. (Apart from the big 3 ALk , CAL, MAG).
I managed to jump on a forum where the Great Randy was on and found out the importance of Potassium and its relationship with zooxanthellae in coral.
I have been reading as much as I can take in and talking about with whomever was polite enough to try and explain it to me the halfwit.
I was in one of my LFS the other day and asking about Calcium reactors and what trace elements the replace. He started to talk more and more on the importance of all the elements. it was all getting to much for me so I was standing there pretending to understand WTF this guy was talking about until he started talking about the effects of insufficient levels of Iodine and the effects it has on fry and more in particular the effect on clowns.
This woke me up a little because my Nemo hasn’t got a special fin but a “special’ stripe.

He also said he has seen batches of clowns that lack markings or that differentiate from your typical 3 banded ocellaris clowns.

The big question is and these top dollar clowns on the market mutants that lacked Iodine?

I am seaking answers that I am not even sure I will understand how ever as I assume most people have switched their brain off from work this may kick it over again with at least some interesting conversation.
For those interested these were randys comments about Potassium
FWIW, potassium isn't a trace element. it is one of the major ions of seawater.

That isn't just chemist lingo. The difference is important.

Trace elements are present at very low concentrations, and can easily accumulate or deplete rapidly in aquaria depending on what is being added or consumed. And a tiny bit of a supplement can add huge amounts relative to NSW levels.

Potassium, however, is present at very high concentrations in seawater. It takes a lot of anything to boost it, and it takes a lot of consumption to deplete it.

CaCO3/CO2 reactors add back what is present in coral skeletons, but potassium is more incorporated into tissue than skeletons. So growing algae, coral tissue, fish tissue, etc. all consume potassium. And foods all contain it inside of cells.
And
1. View attachment 46699Originally Posted by RobbieMVFC View attachment 46700
Thank you for the explanation Randy.
So in essence if potassium is present in Coral tissue and algae. This would affect the zooxanthellae and in turn the color of the SPS.
Is that correct ?
Am I/we on the right track by increasing the Potassium to 380-400ppm ?
Funny thing is Blue/Green & purple SPS in my tank are fine . its only the Pink colors that I struggle with
Potassium is critical for the function of nearly every cell in every organism. For example, it is often higher in concentration inside of cells than outside (such as in blood or seawater). So cells often use the concentration gradient of potassium to move other chemicals across cell membranes, even if those other chemicals "don't want to cross".

So maintaining it may be quite important. Aiming for about 400 ppm seems appropriate to me as that is a typical natural level.

 

[RobbieMVFC]

 

[Aspidites]

Maybe you are onto something with the low potassium vs wierd striping. I do know from experience that inter breeding changes colours/ finnage/ other muttions. ( I have done it in many other species not aquarium related) It does raise an interesting point though

 

[RobbieMVFC]

UOTE="Aspidites, post: 153450, member: 966"]Maybe you are onto something with the low potassium vs wierd striping. I do know from experience that inter breeding changes colours/ finnage/ other muttions. ( I have done it in many other species not aquarium related) It does raise an interesting point though[/QUOTE]

Actually it was iodine that he said that was effects the markings.

 

[rnscross]

Iodine may be important for the development of clown fish however there are no accurate hobby test kits, so any one who's correlated it to anything is probably wrong.

The designer clowns and your Misbar are the likely result of genetics. Misbarring could be from other factors as it is so commonly found when breeding clowns.

A quick lit search shows only hufa to be important for development. But that could be just that nothing else is researched yet. However given the expense of hufa enrichment I wouldn't be surprised if this was the reason for developmental defects like Misbarring.

 

[Oceanarium]

Miss bars are malnourished as young larva. Usually they are fed on NHBS or rotifers that are not well enriched with sufficient and nutritious green water.

I found by improving the quality and density of the green water the problem is 100% resolved.

Could still be connected with iodine levels in the diet, but not to do with genetics. You can even breed 100% barred young from misbars.

 

[Aspidites]

Miss bars are malnourished as young larva. Usually they are fed on NHBS or rotifers that are not well enriched with sufficient and nutritious green water.

I found by improving the quality and density of the green water the problem is 100% resolved.

Could still be connected with iodine levels in the diet, but not to do with genetics. You can even breed 100% barred young from misbars.

Does that include the snowflakes, platinums and those types?

 

[Oceanarium]

They are wild caught genetic variations people have found and bred from.

Some of the designer clowns are also hybrid between species.

Malnourished as miss bars are typically your fish that don't form any or only partial body bars.

 

[ReeferRob]

Iodine may be important for the development of clown fish however there are no accurate hobby test kits, so any one who's correlated it to anything is probably wrong.

Hanna makes an iodine tester. I just bought one because I keep so many soft corals.

http://www.aquacave.com/hanna-iodine-checker-hi718.html

 

[rnscross]

While the hanna checker is digital it is still only measuring one parameter, wavelength absorbance (simply a colour change). Therefore, while the hanna will more acurately measure "iodide" it will still be limited by the fact that iodide as an element can be found in different molecular forms, with differing properties. Below is an excerpt from advanced aquarist regarding testing with the link to the full article. HTH.


"Measurement of Iodine: Test Kits
There are many ways to measure iodine in seawater. Even confining the list to those that most aquarists are likely to encounter, there are still at least three fundamentally different ways, and those three all detect different subsets of the total iodine species in water. Unfortunately, those differences make comparisons of the different methods almost impossible, and also complicate the interpretation of the data from any single one of them. Of the commercially available kits, the Seachem and Salifert iodine kits are the most popular in the US. Unfortunately, the use and interpretation of these kits is tedious and complicated. I’d like to hold off on detailed comments about how well they work until I’ve had additional time to study them, but so far my experience has been rather less successful that with simpler kits (alkalinity, calcium, etc.).

The Seachem iodine kit detects only iodide (I-) and molecular iodine (I2). It is unlikely that there will be much I2 in an aquarium as it quickly breaks down into other products59 [to be described in a later article that will include a discussion on using products that contain I2, such as Lugols solution]. A potential drawback to this kit is that it doesn’t detect iodate. So if your tank water matches normal seawater in quantity and speciation of iodine, then it will look artificially low (say, about 0.01 or 0.02 ppm). I would also not advise using this kit if you are adding an iodine supplement that contains considerable amounts of iodate, molecular iodine (that may break down into products that include iodate and iodide)59, or organic iodine forms. There is also the concern that supplemental iodide, and those forms of iodine coming in with marine foods, may end up partially as iodate. Consequently, this kit may substantially underestimate the total amount of iodine present. I fell into that trap years ago in dosing iodate to my tank, and a significant concentration built up before I specifically tested for it.

The Salifert iodine test kit detects iodide, iodate, and molecular iodine. Salifert is about to come out with a new iodine kit (using a yellow color instead of a pink color). Assuming that it functions properly, it would be a good choice for anyone dosing iodide, iodate, or molecular iodine, though it is a long test involving quite a few steps. It will not detect many organic iodine forms, and people dosing such compounds should beware of overdosing."


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/3/chemistry

 

[rnscross]

This came up in a brochure from a recent conference for lab based analysis of ions, and looks to be accurate in the measurement of potassium

http://www.horiba.com/laquatwin/en/lineup/index.html#k

~$300 on amazon