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TBH, I have my reservations about this, but I don't know if my reasons are valid. I get scared off things pretty easily and when places go putting out their hand and market it as something that I see no real personal benefit in, it makes me back off quickly. So there's every likelihood that I'm just getting paranoid bc on the surface (loosely!) my brain might be taking this as one of those ;)
I have paid forum memberships in the past. The incentive being: the membership entitled me to advertise my sales. There were different levels of membership available and I felt that the exchange was fair, ie, I got equal benefit from the cost.
I have also willing made donations to sites when forums that I frequented posted outlining their ongoing site expenses. Again, I felt that this was fair because I was doing it by choice.
In this instance, (though I'm not convinced that I fully understand it), I'm seeing this points system as having the potential to deter new users. Am I correct in thinking that the purchasing of points (at least the initial $5 worth) is a mandatory part of joining this site? If it is, I think that you'll lose a lot of U18s, but if it's not, then ignore me.
I understand that this has the potential to raise this site from an "average" forum to a superior one if the points do prove themselves to be incentive for frequent, real quality posts. But I'm worried that after everyone's initial points splurge in their excitement at the novelty aspect, the real hip-pocket expense will be realised and the average Joe will begin to back off.
It COULD encourage the real movers and shakers of the reefing hobby to the site, tempting them with a very good likelihood of regular earning (albeit small?) if they were to be posting their ideas and findings on new ways to keep, or breed/cultivate our favourite critters... But it could also dishearten long-time users (or newbies) who post something that they think is "quality" only to find that not a single person "donates" to them like they do the big-guns.
I don't know. I'm torn.
I'm not interested regularly paying out to buy points in order to encourage people to post the kind of useful info that they should be posting regardless, or even just to say "good on you" to a 15yo who might join and post a bright idea that I think deserves a pat on the back. The novelty of paying to do that will wear thin on me quickly. But at the same time, I am happy to pay my share and support what I'm finding to be a quality, but more importantly FRIENDLY and SUPPORTIVE forum to keep running...
And call me a stick-in-the-mud, but I couldn't care less about the ability to post moods, or medals, or the rest of it lol. I'm here to support and learn, not decorate myself like I would my high-school diary :p lol
If I have the wrong end of the stick on all of this, I will be pleased to hear it :) But if not, I just wanted to post my concerns lest you find a decrease in new users and wonder why no one had voiced it if it was a genuine concern ;) Regardless, I will support the forum in whatever it decides. I'm enjoying my time here and am keen to stay ;)
Sorry for the rant *blush*
Bek
(PS - FWIW Les is more business minded than myself and agrees that this has potential. It's just me who has real concerns about it)
I have paid forum memberships in the past. The incentive being: the membership entitled me to advertise my sales. There were different levels of membership available and I felt that the exchange was fair, ie, I got equal benefit from the cost.
I have also willing made donations to sites when forums that I frequented posted outlining their ongoing site expenses. Again, I felt that this was fair because I was doing it by choice.
In this instance, (though I'm not convinced that I fully understand it), I'm seeing this points system as having the potential to deter new users. Am I correct in thinking that the purchasing of points (at least the initial $5 worth) is a mandatory part of joining this site? If it is, I think that you'll lose a lot of U18s, but if it's not, then ignore me.
I understand that this has the potential to raise this site from an "average" forum to a superior one if the points do prove themselves to be incentive for frequent, real quality posts. But I'm worried that after everyone's initial points splurge in their excitement at the novelty aspect, the real hip-pocket expense will be realised and the average Joe will begin to back off.
It COULD encourage the real movers and shakers of the reefing hobby to the site, tempting them with a very good likelihood of regular earning (albeit small?) if they were to be posting their ideas and findings on new ways to keep, or breed/cultivate our favourite critters... But it could also dishearten long-time users (or newbies) who post something that they think is "quality" only to find that not a single person "donates" to them like they do the big-guns.
I don't know. I'm torn.
I'm not interested regularly paying out to buy points in order to encourage people to post the kind of useful info that they should be posting regardless, or even just to say "good on you" to a 15yo who might join and post a bright idea that I think deserves a pat on the back. The novelty of paying to do that will wear thin on me quickly. But at the same time, I am happy to pay my share and support what I'm finding to be a quality, but more importantly FRIENDLY and SUPPORTIVE forum to keep running...
And call me a stick-in-the-mud, but I couldn't care less about the ability to post moods, or medals, or the rest of it lol. I'm here to support and learn, not decorate myself like I would my high-school diary :p lol
If I have the wrong end of the stick on all of this, I will be pleased to hear it :) But if not, I just wanted to post my concerns lest you find a decrease in new users and wonder why no one had voiced it if it was a genuine concern ;) Regardless, I will support the forum in whatever it decides. I'm enjoying my time here and am keen to stay ;)
Sorry for the rant *blush*
Bek
(PS - FWIW Les is more business minded than myself and agrees that this has potential. It's just me who has real concerns about it)
Hello @TheJordans,
Wow, great feedback! Thanks for taking the time to write up your concerns. I will answer the questions and points you made.
There was a point guests had more power (could post all over the site without the need to register), but unfortunately the spam got too high and we had to make posting a members-only deal (membership is free).
Purchasing points is absolutely not mandatory. No part of the site will be hidden if a user does not participate in this system. The system is simply there to allow users to help fund The Reefuge IF they choose to do so.
I will not outline costs of the site as there are too many for me to look up, but to date I have personally spent in excess of $11k on The Reefuge, with a (currently) minimum running cost of >$200/m for server hosting (not including development, time, etc). This is not a problem, as I enjoy this website and the community.
Again, all that has been asked in return from the community is for them to treat each other with respect and learn from each other. No money has even been requested in order for the site to have full functionality to any user who paid. ALL functionality is free, and for the most part unlimited (storage space, image upload sizes, unlimited size inbox, etc).
It is nothing more than a system designed to help with the costs of the website, but as opposed for the website being the only entity to benefit from it, users can too.
However, I would ask you read http://wikireef.org/doku.php/thereefugegold
It explains how the system works, but if after reading it you are still unsure, please reply as it will need to be fixed.
EDIT: I would also like to add one more thing. Since the day this website went live it has not made a profit. It has not broken even with the costs (far, far from it). I understand the community is still relatively small for businesses to take seriously, however that is only one reason why the site does not have much advertising on it.
I am very selective in who is allowed to advertise here. Businesses who have a bad reputation, or businesses who's customer service is not top notch will not be able to purchase business services here. The money is not a factor when it comes to this. Unless I believe the business will fit well within the community, services are not available to them. If the business has good customer service and a good reputation, only then are they considered.
I am not a fan of this website making money using advertising. Some advertising and services are okay, as they are good for the community. I do believe the best way for this site to make money is by those who believe the site is worthy and are willing to purchase things in order to help the site grow. Not everyone will buy gold (and that is okay), but some will. I am hoping that the minority who do purchase it use it to help the community grow even tighter, gift users who post good quality content and who go out of their way to help another. The idea of the gold is not only to help fund the website, but also motivate users to help each other out even more.
Thanks.
Wow, great feedback! Thanks for taking the time to write up your concerns. I will answer the questions and points you made.
The Reefuge is not putting out its hand. A lot of members have asked previously about donating to the site, and though we had it up for a little bit of time, donations stopped being accepted. There is no benefit in buying all these extra things, nor is it marketed that way. These extra things are just for fun, and a way of helping to fund the website which has all of the features completely free. Extra features purchased by gold literally do nothing except provide a little bit of fun.
I am a big believer that information should be uncensored and free to all who want to get their hands on it. This is not limited to the website, but information in general, such as education, science, etc. The Reefuge was built on this idea, and thus there is no part of the site that can be accessed simply by providing monetary funding. All parts of the site can be accessed by members (even guests). We do not sell information back to the public, it is all open and free. Even our state groups have no membership costs and anyone is free to join it.
There was a point guests had more power (could post all over the site without the need to register), but unfortunately the spam got too high and we had to make posting a members-only deal (membership is free).
Purchasing points is absolutely not mandatory. No part of the site will be hidden if a user does not participate in this system. The system is simply there to allow users to help fund The Reefuge IF they choose to do so.
I will not outline costs of the site as there are too many for me to look up, but to date I have personally spent in excess of $11k on The Reefuge, with a (currently) minimum running cost of >$200/m for server hosting (not including development, time, etc). This is not a problem, as I enjoy this website and the community.
Again, all that has been asked in return from the community is for them to treat each other with respect and learn from each other. No money has even been requested in order for the site to have full functionality to any user who paid. ALL functionality is free, and for the most part unlimited (storage space, image upload sizes, unlimited size inbox, etc).
Again, the Gold system is a way to help with the costs of The Reefuge. I did not feel right in collecting user donations, so this is a way both the site receives funding help AND it is shared with the users. As far as your other point goes, I have no idea what it will do. I hope it will encourage quality posts and the community will gift gold to those who put back into the website (good quality content, helping users, etc).
You will not regularly need to pay to buy points. In fact, if you never spend a single cent on purchasing points, the website will run the exact same way for you as it has been running since you joined. You will literally not notice a single difference. Users who have 0 gold in their account and users who have 1,000,000 gold in their account will both have the exact same access to the website. The only difference being the user with the gold could use it to buy some 'fun' features or donate it to users who post good content.
It is nothing more than a system designed to help with the costs of the website, but as opposed for the website being the only entity to benefit from it, users can too.
I really appreciate it when users take the time to write up a post like this. It shows that they were willing to take the time to write up a proper post instead of "I don't like it". You raised good points, and I hope I answered them clearly.
However, I would ask you read http://wikireef.org/doku.php/thereefugegold
It explains how the system works, but if after reading it you are still unsure, please reply as it will need to be fixed.
EDIT: I would also like to add one more thing. Since the day this website went live it has not made a profit. It has not broken even with the costs (far, far from it). I understand the community is still relatively small for businesses to take seriously, however that is only one reason why the site does not have much advertising on it.
I am very selective in who is allowed to advertise here. Businesses who have a bad reputation, or businesses who's customer service is not top notch will not be able to purchase business services here. The money is not a factor when it comes to this. Unless I believe the business will fit well within the community, services are not available to them. If the business has good customer service and a good reputation, only then are they considered.
I am not a fan of this website making money using advertising. Some advertising and services are okay, as they are good for the community. I do believe the best way for this site to make money is by those who believe the site is worthy and are willing to purchase things in order to help the site grow. Not everyone will buy gold (and that is okay), but some will. I am hoping that the minority who do purchase it use it to help the community grow even tighter, gift users who post good quality content and who go out of their way to help another. The idea of the gold is not only to help fund the website, but also motivate users to help each other out even more.
Thanks.
Thanks so much for clarifying all of that! You more than covered all of my concerns.
While I did read that wiki link, I'll admit to probably not taking it all in *blush* my reading time is while I've got the bub *blush*
I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way as that certainly wasn't my intent. I just thought that I should put my thought forward in case anyone else had the same concerns but didn't want to raise them ;-)
Thanks so much again! It's all clear now :-)
While I did read that wiki link, I'll admit to probably not taking it all in *blush* my reading time is while I've got the bub *blush*
I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way as that certainly wasn't my intent. I just thought that I should put my thought forward in case anyone else had the same concerns but didn't want to raise them ;-)
Thanks so much again! It's all clear now :-)
Hello @TheJordans,
No offense taken. It is always good to hear what the community has to say. That is what allows growth.
Thanks.
No offense taken. It is always good to hear what the community has to say. That is what allows growth.
Thanks.
Christ no offence at all @TheJordans. I think they will need my help if they want to create the Reefuge Central Bank
Just a thought. Wouldn't it be more conventional to discount the coins as people buy more. Eg 20 = $2.50 and 30 = $3.25 for example. Only benefits Refugee but as I understand it, that's the whole point.
I'm also concerned for the refugee's reputation moving forward on this. Phycology of people changes when money is involved. People are bound to expect to get something for their efforts and may be put out if it doesn't happen. It's unlikely the people who contribute the most would be one of them but there will be a lot of people who will be overly generous and others who will be the extreme opposite leading to inconsistencies and the potential for discontentment.
Anything that upsets the apple cart on this site would be a crime as it has to be one of the best one of these styles for any hobby!
I would much rather pay an annual subscription for the upgrades and then have another tier based on likes which would help give people like magicj and the many others like him to get something extra special again above what the rest of us have to reward them?
I will buy the gold but scared this may backfire.
I'm also concerned for the refugee's reputation moving forward on this. Phycology of people changes when money is involved. People are bound to expect to get something for their efforts and may be put out if it doesn't happen. It's unlikely the people who contribute the most would be one of them but there will be a lot of people who will be overly generous and others who will be the extreme opposite leading to inconsistencies and the potential for discontentment.
Anything that upsets the apple cart on this site would be a crime as it has to be one of the best one of these styles for any hobby!
I would much rather pay an annual subscription for the upgrades and then have another tier based on likes which would help give people like magicj and the many others like him to get something extra special again above what the rest of us have to reward them?
I will buy the gold but scared this may backfire.
Couple of questions from me.
1) Will the gold a user has in their bank be displayed like Message Count and Ratings?
2) The 'No Mood' bar is there to stay for those that don't upgrade their mood?
I guess I just want to make sure, to some of the points just discussed, that people don't feel pressured into buying or using gold because their profile indicates they are a tight-ass who hasn't donated.
1) Will the gold a user has in their bank be displayed like Message Count and Ratings?
2) The 'No Mood' bar is there to stay for those that don't upgrade their mood?
I guess I just want to make sure, to some of the points just discussed, that people don't feel pressured into buying or using gold because their profile indicates they are a tight-ass who hasn't donated.
My only concern would be, will this create 2 different classes on the Reefuge? Gold members and non-gold members. Will it become to a certain degree 2 societies, gold members help gold members and non-gold members helping each. Some gold members could see it as, if they won't chip in to help fund the Reefuge why should we help them. Hopefully this wouldn't be the case.
Personally I would hate to see this happen & like to think that the community here would not allow it happen. This is a community here at TheReefuge, who cares about the size of your tank or the size of your wallet? It's about the people & helping each other out were we can. This Gold is a bit of fun that will keep some amused for awhile. There are some really clever people on the site that offer their advice & help freely, I can't see guy's like @MagicJ @dr_schell sitting back & not answering a call because someone has not got any gold in their account? For my mind I'm comparing it to those stupid games people play on FB. You don't need to buy the points to advance, you will still get the rewards in the end, but if you buy the points you get there faster. The difference here is that we all get the same product were it counts, others might get a medal or couple of gold coins. It is a personal choice to play the game or not, no one should think any different of all the members on the site.
A good point about being displayed in a members profile, perhaps this can only be seen by the member who has gold? same with when a member receives gold? Everyone's balance will not be on display for the rest of the world.
How will business members be treated god? Will they be ineligible for participation? Could make it tricky for members like @chimaera & @Synodontis lol :confused:
I'm tired & should toddle off now.
Hello @Gordon,
Coins must keep their value no matter what. Because of this, it may not work allowing the user to cash out their coins, as there will be too many paypal fees to make it worth while. Considering the amount of paypal fees people will pay, and the safety of allowing users to cash out coins, it may be a feature that will not be implemented. Currently we are still looking at the idea of Reefuge Gold, and nothing is set in stone.
Thanks.
Hello @chimaera,
1) No, a users Gold will only be visible to the user. Other forum members will not know how much gold any user has. However, when gifts are made to a post, the post will display how many gifts it has received.
2) No, there will be a little box saying "Reefer" for those who do not change their mood. It will also include a little smiley.
Thanks.
Hello @Darren S,
This was also a worry too. However, judging by how this community functions, and how welcoming they are of new users, I believe it will only have a positive impact rather than a negative one. I believe this community is mature and close enough to not allow for segregation to happen.
Thanks.
Just a thought:
What about approaching someone who frags a lot (*cough* loony *cough* etc) and proposition them with members purchasing/trading their gold for frags? Or even being able to purchase from the other site businesses if someone accumulated enough gold?
Sorry. Sleep deprived brain at work lol
Then there would be no PayPal fees and the member only has to pay postage
What about approaching someone who frags a lot (*cough* loony *cough* etc) and proposition them with members purchasing/trading their gold for frags? Or even being able to purchase from the other site businesses if someone accumulated enough gold?
Sorry. Sleep deprived brain at work lol
Then there would be no PayPal fees and the member only has to pay postage
In regards to this post, and as stated previously, my intention is to help ALL MEMBERS, regardless of their 'gold status'. Would be very unfortunate if others did not follow suit. However, given the nature of this community, I would imagine that '2 societies' would not arise as a result of this system.
Personally, I chose to help others on this forum because almost without exception, members are respectful of others. This is what keeps me around. As long as this is evident, I will aid others to the best of my abilities, regardless of experience/status/gold. Should the situation change significantly (ie nature of the forum and the respectful nature of its members), this will no longe be a place that I will enjoy visinting and as such.......you get the picture.
Valid suggestion (so great that you shared it :D).
The problem with this is how tangible gold is to businesses (or those trying to get to that point). At the top of the pyramid the gold can't exceed a value that the business at the top is prepared to invest into The Reefuge if they don't have commercial arrangements with other businesses on the forum.
For example, my new grow out system has the capacity to hold a 5 digit dollar values worth of livestock (and is costing a fair chunk of that to build) - if a noticeable fraction of my stock is bought with gold, unless I'm then using that gold to buy other things I need from another businesses here, the gold is essentially a donation - and we're talking about a lot of moneys worth of donation for someone on a single average income.
Now in perspective, once this system is in place, and say I've been paid gold for sold stock, I need to buy little from any businesses that actually trade here - so I'd basically have a lot of money tied up in gold rather than in cash that I can use to pay for the more tangible costs I have to deal with - equipment, power, heating, water, repayment of initial investment etc.
Assuming I can buy some of that from other Reefuge businesses, they then have the same issue.
The economy that it creates doesn't necessarily provide to the needs of business - and like in real world economy terms - when a local economy doesn't provide what commerce needs, you need to go further afield... which in the real world is buying overseas, which means your currency needs to have a tangible value to the rest of the world, and you need a way of converting one currency to another...or in this case, turn gold back to cash.
That starts to defeat the purpose of what The Reefuge Gold is really aimed at I think - it needs to keep "gold" within its own economy for forum members to give for good advice, to buy little status symbols (I want that grumpy mood!) and perhaps for the odd trade between forum members who have no financial interest in the transaction.
From a business viewpoint it could be ideal early on to sell the odd thing for gold just to build up a bit of a supply of it, but I don't see it making good business sense to use it long term as an alternative currency - at least until we can get a few utility companies to let us pay bills with it :p
Hello @TheJordans,
If a member is generous enough to sell frags for gold that is completely up to them. However, it should be noted that points will not be able to be cashed out at this time, nor may they ever. I can write up the reasons why, but there is a fair bit of explaining to do. If you wish to know, please reply and I will post them up.
I would also like to mention that members will be able to buy upgrades for other users too. There will be the gifting feature (clicking 'gift gold' on good content), but there will also be a field when users purchase upgrades that will allow them to purchase upgrades for other users too.
Thanks.
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