Reef Discussion
id really like to argue that and explain the importance of UV... but honestly im too tired and to busy lol. So i copy pasted out of my personal docs at work
Common Aquarium Microorganism UV Dosages
Target Microorganism
The size, biological make up and life cycle of a microorganism all play a critical part in successful germicidal disinfection. By way of comparison, there are approximately 65,000 known protozoa and only 45,000 bacteria of which all require their own specific UV-C dose. A microorganism's size plays a significant roll in the UV dose required to irradiate it. Protozoa are often many times larger than bacteria and therefore, require a much higher UV dose. The speed (flow rate) at which the waterborne microorganism travels through the UV housing (across the UV lamp field) establishes the UV dose (µWs/cm²) received (see chart below).
Type Name UV Dose Info Source
Algae Chlorella Vulgaris 22,000 -
Bacteria Aeromonas Salmonicida 3,620 Normandeau (log-3)
Bacteria Pseudomonas Fluorescens (fin rot) 11,000 (log-3)
Bacteria Bacilus Subtilus (spores) 22,000 Nagy (log-3)
Fungi Saprolengnia (Zoo spores) 39,600 Normandeau (log-3)
Protozoa Sarcina Lutea 26,400 Nagy (log-3)
Protozoa Ceratomyxa Shasta 30,000 Bedell (log-3)
Protozoa Trichodina Sp. 35,000 Hoffman (log-3)
Protozoa Myxobolus Cerebralis (TAMs, Whirling Disease) 40,000 School of Veternary Medicine, U. of CA
Protozoa Ichthyophthirius Tomites (freshwater white spot) 100,000 Hoffman
Protozoa Amyloodinium Ocellateum (marine velvet) 105,000 -
Protozoa Trichodina Nigra 159,000 Vlasenko
Protozoa Cryptocaryon Irritans (marine white spot) 280,000 -
Protozoa Costia Necatrix 318,000 Vlasenko (log-3)
Virus KHV (koi herpes virus) 4,000 Kasai Hisae
Virus CCV (channel catfish virus) 20,000 Yoshimizu, Takizawa, Kimura
Virus IHNV (infectious hematopoietic necrosis/CHAB) 20,000 Yoshimizu, Takizawa, Kimura (log-3)
Virus OMV (oncorhynchus masou virus) 20,000 Yoshimizu, Takizawa, Kimura
Virus IHNV (infectious hematopoietic necrosis/RTTO) 30,000 Yoshimizu, Takizawa, Kimura
Virus VHS (viral haemorrhagic septicaemia) 32,000 Ioannis Thasitis
Virus CSV (chum salmon virus) 100,000 Yoshimizu
Virus IPNV (infectious pancreatic necrosis virus) 336,700 Norwegian School of Veternary Science (log-3)
Microorganism Life Cycle
Life cycle is another critical factor that requires consideration when applying UV sterilization. For example, the marine parasite Cryptocaryon (saltwater whitespot) is an excellent representation of how complex a microorganism's life cycle can be. Cryptocaryon has a four part life cycle. A warm water parasite, cryptocaryon can be lethal to many species of marine fish. Diagram A is very descriptive, showing the many characteristics of this microorganism. The aquaculture community has waged battles against cryptocaryon and have lost, specifically at the encysted (Tomont) stage, simply due to it's evasiveness by attaching itself to its substrate. Disease outbreaks still occur even with filtering the water column using extremely fast flow rates.
Prerequisites of achieving successful UV disinfection
- Identify the "Target Microorganism", consider its physical and life cycle characteristics
- Determine its "Required" UV Dose
- Determine the condition of the water to be treated (water temperature & UV transmissibility)
- Contact your UV manufacturer, ask questions regarding their UV equipment's capacity compared
to your specific needs - Select the UV Sterilizer model that best suits your application requirements
Thanks for the info Mitchell.
I think you are saying that UV is good??
The dose required to kill Cryptocaryon Irritans (marine white spot) is significantly higher than the majority of other organisms in the above list - given that this is one of the primary organisms that hobbyists wish to control, are consumer level UV's suitable??
I think you are saying that UV is good??
The dose required to kill Cryptocaryon Irritans (marine white spot) is significantly higher than the majority of other organisms in the above list - given that this is one of the primary organisms that hobbyists wish to control, are consumer level UV's suitable??
i knew i was gonna get dragged into this haha, cant keep my mouth shut ;P
OK so those figures, in particular 280,000 UV (uWs/cm2) is absolutly mamoth. If your poured a litre of whitewpot into a 10,000L holding tank then you would need 280thousand UV to cure the tank.
90,000 UV is more than enough to prevent whitespot in a marine tank for waterborn protozoa, you will always need an additional method for killing the bastards that end up in the sand bed.
I suspect alot of people dont understand how UVT works either, so you need to understand that flow rate is very important, and that UV should ALWAYS be inline with the return pump. For instance a 1000L tank with a 3500LPH return pump (aprox 3x return volume) with a 40w UV will only produce 30,000UV, but if you slowed the pump down to 1000-2000LPH it would produce the required 90,000UV to prevent whitespot. UV is directly related to contact time of water against the UV bulb.
See the diagram below for more help in sizing a unit. Also there is nothing wrong with consumer level UV's, something like the Pentair Ultra Step UV systems are great value, spares avail, dont take up alot of room and come in 10-15 and 25 watt units for smaller aquariums.
OK so those figures, in particular 280,000 UV (uWs/cm2) is absolutly mamoth. If your poured a litre of whitewpot into a 10,000L holding tank then you would need 280thousand UV to cure the tank.
90,000 UV is more than enough to prevent whitespot in a marine tank for waterborn protozoa, you will always need an additional method for killing the bastards that end up in the sand bed.
I suspect alot of people dont understand how UVT works either, so you need to understand that flow rate is very important, and that UV should ALWAYS be inline with the return pump. For instance a 1000L tank with a 3500LPH return pump (aprox 3x return volume) with a 40w UV will only produce 30,000UV, but if you slowed the pump down to 1000-2000LPH it would produce the required 90,000UV to prevent whitespot. UV is directly related to contact time of water against the UV bulb.
See the diagram below for more help in sizing a unit. Also there is nothing wrong with consumer level UV's, something like the Pentair Ultra Step UV systems are great value, spares avail, dont take up alot of room and come in 10-15 and 25 watt units for smaller aquariums.
Interesting discussion :D
In one post you have a chart which shows that 280,000 UV (uWs/cm2) is required to kill Cryptocaryon and in another post you say that
I see this as the biggest problem
I think it is fair to say that a UV steriliser might reduce the number of parasites to some degree which may allow the fish to better cope with an outbreak but it is unlikely to eradicate the parasite completely.
In one post you have a chart which shows that 280,000 UV (uWs/cm2) is required to kill Cryptocaryon and in another post you say that
There is a big difference between the two so not sure which is correct.
I see this as the biggest problem
Cryptocaryon can really only be treated by a UV during the infective stage (theronts) but they will generally be low down in the tank and it is unlikely that significant numbers will be drawn over the weir and thus have contact with the UV.
I think it is fair to say that a UV steriliser might reduce the number of parasites to some degree which may allow the fish to better cope with an outbreak but it is unlikely to eradicate the parasite completely.
negative, you took my posts out of context
i said that 280,000 UV is needed kill white spot once it has been introduced into a tank full flight.
90,000 is more than enough to prevent whitespot outbreaks.
there is a big difference.
waterborn is waterborn, no matter where they are in the tank, they will get drawn into the weir. but once the parasites have let go of there host and burrow into the sand where they sit and hatch etc etc an additional method is always recomended.
food for thought, there isnt a single aquaculture or wholesale supplier that my company has set up who doesnt use correctly sized UV systems + additional methods. for white spot and other bacteria/protozoa's.
In regards to " I think it is fair to say that a UV steriliser might reduce the number of parasites* to some degree which may allow the fish to better cope with an outbreak but it is unlikely to eradicate the parasite completely. "
Your basically right in a round about kind of way. Once you have introduced whitespot into your tank your stuffed either way. i would add to that tho "*Greatly Reduce the risk of parasites" aswell. In personal experiances where this has happened, everything comes out, hospital + copper, replaced media and sandbed, Lesson learnt.
i said that 280,000 UV is needed kill white spot once it has been introduced into a tank full flight.
90,000 is more than enough to prevent whitespot outbreaks.
there is a big difference.
waterborn is waterborn, no matter where they are in the tank, they will get drawn into the weir. but once the parasites have let go of there host and burrow into the sand where they sit and hatch etc etc an additional method is always recomended.
food for thought, there isnt a single aquaculture or wholesale supplier that my company has set up who doesnt use correctly sized UV systems + additional methods. for white spot and other bacteria/protozoa's.
In regards to " I think it is fair to say that a UV steriliser might reduce the number of parasites* to some degree which may allow the fish to better cope with an outbreak but it is unlikely to eradicate the parasite completely. "
Your basically right in a round about kind of way. Once you have introduced whitespot into your tank your stuffed either way. i would add to that tho "*Greatly Reduce the risk of parasites" aswell. In personal experiances where this has happened, everything comes out, hospital + copper, replaced media and sandbed, Lesson learnt.
But we are not really comparing apples with apples - I would assume that the vast majority, if not all, of these systems are bare bottom, fish only, systems where:
- there is no sand, rock etc where the mature trophont can sink to the substrate pending the reproductive stage - with no where to 'hide' it is more likely to get caught up in the overflow and thus be exposed to the UV.
- being fish only, the additional methods you mention are able to be deployed, whether it be copper based or whatever.
So, the question remains - does a UV on a hobbyists reef tank destroy more beneficial organisms than bad ones?? I think it is agreed that it cannot eliminate the parasite on its own and we have little recourse to alternative medicatiions in a reef tank.
:D
hmmm, ok ill do my best to answer this honestly - buisiness aside.
Yes i guess i am talking bare bottom, but coral wholesale tanks aswell (think every coral exporter in Aus).
in response to bring home sick fish from the LFS, it brings into play what i said about a hospital tank. If you dont have one you probly arnt going to have a UV either....
a proper quarintine procedure in place, followed by being introduced into a parasite free aquarium with good water quality, good filtration and UV is going to ten-fold your chances at fish survival.
furthermore LFS that allow transport of fish without Pro-Tech (slime coat and vitamin supplement) to reduce fish stress during transport and handling arnt helping either.
Yes i guess i am talking bare bottom, but coral wholesale tanks aswell (think every coral exporter in Aus).
in response to bring home sick fish from the LFS, it brings into play what i said about a hospital tank. If you dont have one you probly arnt going to have a UV either....
a proper quarintine procedure in place, followed by being introduced into a parasite free aquarium with good water quality, good filtration and UV is going to ten-fold your chances at fish survival.
furthermore LFS that allow transport of fish without Pro-Tech (slime coat and vitamin supplement) to reduce fish stress during transport and handling arnt helping either.
:welcome@Matman !
Wish I had of seen this post earlier as UV and ozonation are two of my specialities but Mitchell Codey beat me to it (also seems like you may just work where I used to going on the information you've provided and the products you've mentioned!). And as he outlined UV is pretty complex and there is a fair bit of maths involved in working out what system will work for you. And to throw some more confusion in, different manufactures make different output UV bulbs. Therfore it is important to know what the output of the bulb is. The Pentair UV's mentioned have a 15,000uMs/cm2 bulb, however the chart you have used is for the Emperor Aquatics range who use a 30,000uMs/cm2 bulb.
Oh and by the way, can you get a replacement ballast for your UV Matman? I would say this would be the problem.. Most ballast last around 2 years when operating 24/7, 365. :)
In short no, probably not. Most beneficial bacteria (think nitrifying and de-nitrifying types) are bethnic or sublevel inhabitants and most reproduce by cell division (to my knowledge anyway) so therfore do not have a waterborn stage, which eliminates them from being drawn through the UV. However if you are using a live bacteria culture, or a bacteriological based additive these would be available for irradiation by the UV as they are still waterborn. As you said beneficial 'organisms' I assume you also mean picto, nano, micro and zooplanktons. Depending on what they are made up of (algae, detritus, micro-organisms etc) will depend on the UV's effect on it. UV will also destroy algae and plant cells and in relatively low dosages (off top of my head I think its about 18,000uMs/cm2) so a bacteriological dosage of 30,000uMs/cm2 will also destroy many of the above planktons. At 90,000uMs/cm2 it would most likely destroy just about anything.
Just a side note Mitchell Codey hasn't mentioned is the shape of the reaction chamber has a big influence on kill rate. A centralised singular bulb can only kill what is directly around the bulb, however there are also (and also significantly more expensive) UV units where the bulbs are place around a central reaction chamber, this kills everything in the chamber, and can be more effective as a higher dosage can be put out of a relatively small unit.
The UV steriliser is from guppies its a 36w.As I said ive put a new globe in it no more than 2mths ago.Ive checked the globe and it seems to be ok no burn marks on the inside like the original globe.The unit itself is probably 16-18mths old.I only paid $100 for it so no real great loss.So yes I believe its the ballast as well.
Cheers Mat