Reef Discussion
It's called 'polyp bail-out' if you want to do some research on it.
There aren't any clear answers as to why it happens as far as I know. You'll find a mixture of reasons given online such as poor water parameters (with not much in the way of info given to define what they mean by this), sudden changes in environmental conditions/lighting etc.
For eg. re: Elegance corals:
"These corals occasionally “bail out” of their skeletons (Borneman 2006), and may do so in response to poor water parameters or from other undetermined causes or stresses (Figure 1). This is not a normal form of reproduction, but seems to be an “escape” reaction and invariably leads to the colony’s loss. The unattached colony of polyps can live for a long time with good water quality and care but, to my knowledge, never again produces a skeleton, despite perhaps maintaining the potential to do so through the calicoblastic epithelium's cellular calcification mechanisms. Invariably, the inability to keep a detached colony affixed in the aquarium results in its accidental demise. I am not aware of any long-term survival of an elegance colony that has become detached from its skeleton, or any that have again begun to produce a skeleton."
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/eb/index.php
There aren't any clear answers as to why it happens as far as I know. You'll find a mixture of reasons given online such as poor water parameters (with not much in the way of info given to define what they mean by this), sudden changes in environmental conditions/lighting etc.
For eg. re: Elegance corals:
"These corals occasionally “bail out” of their skeletons (Borneman 2006), and may do so in response to poor water parameters or from other undetermined causes or stresses (Figure 1). This is not a normal form of reproduction, but seems to be an “escape” reaction and invariably leads to the colony’s loss. The unattached colony of polyps can live for a long time with good water quality and care but, to my knowledge, never again produces a skeleton, despite perhaps maintaining the potential to do so through the calicoblastic epithelium's cellular calcification mechanisms. Invariably, the inability to keep a detached colony affixed in the aquarium results in its accidental demise. I am not aware of any long-term survival of an elegance colony that has become detached from its skeleton, or any that have again begun to produce a skeleton."
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/eb/index.php
Thank you
I did have a Po4 issue where it rose to 0.4, fixed that now and everything seems fine. Just wondering what caused it. I had 5 cats and 2 bailed out which is what confused me, they all get the same water conditions? I did read that they can have issues in tanks with leathers and xenia, both of which I have but cannot find any info as to why they do or if it has any truth to it.
I did have a Po4 issue where it rose to 0.4, fixed that now and everything seems fine. Just wondering what caused it. I had 5 cats and 2 bailed out which is what confused me, they all get the same water conditions? I did read that they can have issues in tanks with leathers and xenia, both of which I have but cannot find any info as to why they do or if it has any truth to it.
I think more in terms of husbandry than chemistry so can't help with chem-speak water parameter type advice - but I would be inspecting the corals for any sign of tissue damage or discolouration, presence of pests, detritus build up around the skeleton or wastes sitting on the coral tissue itself that might give you some clue as to whats making them unhappy or a starting point for identifying an ailment if there is one. Move them to the front of the tank and observe them at close quarters for a couple of days to see if you spot anything.
Check your equipment - anything rusting etc that could be poisoning the tank?
Revise their position in the tank to suit their preferred growing conditions exactly. ie. medium light, medium indirect flow, regular feeds of your food of choice, get them off the substrate but kept low in the tank. I've found there is flexibility here with Elegance but you want to rule out the possibility they are not happy in their position in the tank. Ensure the skeleton is stable on the rock you place it on & is not rocking in the flow or going to be pushed around by a pesky crab or anything. Once you've moved them there, don't disturb them for a while. You want to place them in a spot where they can extend fully - I've seen people place them in areas of the tank where they are being buffeted by flow & they decrease their surface area by about 50% which means they are not able to photosynthesise as much as they would in lower flow. Plants do this in hot weather and its not a sustainable activity for them - I imagine it would be the same for coral.
Put the Toadstool coral on the opposite end of the tank from the Elegance corals just in case this is the problem. I wouldn't be concerned about the Xenia - Elegance pack a powerful sting and as far as I'm aware they would win hands down when it comes to chemical warfare. I would just not give the Xenia a chance to grow onto the Elegance coral skeleton itself.
Doing a significant (80-90% water change) can remedy a lot of health issues with coral. It's a PITA but worth the hassle. I think too many people try to alter the water chemistry with additives when a water change is the safest option & replaces depleted trace elements we don't test for.
Depending on how long your lights are on each day, perhaps look at adjusting your photoperiod to match a normal daylight cycle for a while and see if it makes a difference.
And by the end of all of that, if they are still not happy - beats me!
Check your equipment - anything rusting etc that could be poisoning the tank?
Revise their position in the tank to suit their preferred growing conditions exactly. ie. medium light, medium indirect flow, regular feeds of your food of choice, get them off the substrate but kept low in the tank. I've found there is flexibility here with Elegance but you want to rule out the possibility they are not happy in their position in the tank. Ensure the skeleton is stable on the rock you place it on & is not rocking in the flow or going to be pushed around by a pesky crab or anything. Once you've moved them there, don't disturb them for a while. You want to place them in a spot where they can extend fully - I've seen people place them in areas of the tank where they are being buffeted by flow & they decrease their surface area by about 50% which means they are not able to photosynthesise as much as they would in lower flow. Plants do this in hot weather and its not a sustainable activity for them - I imagine it would be the same for coral.
Put the Toadstool coral on the opposite end of the tank from the Elegance corals just in case this is the problem. I wouldn't be concerned about the Xenia - Elegance pack a powerful sting and as far as I'm aware they would win hands down when it comes to chemical warfare. I would just not give the Xenia a chance to grow onto the Elegance coral skeleton itself.
Doing a significant (80-90% water change) can remedy a lot of health issues with coral. It's a PITA but worth the hassle. I think too many people try to alter the water chemistry with additives when a water change is the safest option & replaces depleted trace elements we don't test for.
Depending on how long your lights are on each day, perhaps look at adjusting your photoperiod to match a normal daylight cycle for a while and see if it makes a difference.
And by the end of all of that, if they are still not happy - beats me!
maybe the two that bailed were more skittish than the other 3? LOL Possibly the 5 Elegances came from different marine environments and 3 were more tolerant of fluctuations than 2? I know Elegances are harvested from different depths - divers are having to go deeper and deeper to collect them - and the reason why their tentacles are often shorter now is because they come from those deeper environs so perhaps this bailing out thing is for a related reason?
Can you tie the colony down (sport ...*snigger*) in some way, to prevent them visiting the intake? Obviously marine glue isn't any good in this case but perhaps some sort of manual restraint can be worked out?
Can you tie the colony down (sport ...*snigger*) in some way, to prevent them visiting the intake? Obviously marine glue isn't any good in this case but perhaps some sort of manual restraint can be worked out?
First of all thank you!
Water change wise I have done over 100% in the past week. Everything else seems fine, 7 hammers, 3 blastos, 5 rics, 7 morphs, 5 torches, 2 bubbles and 3 other elegances, none seem to have any issues at all.
What baffles me most is all the elegances were in the same spot, so had the same lighting, flow, parameters etc yet these 2 bailed out? Just a bit confused. They have all been in there for about 6 months. I do think the phosphate was the problem S it was way too high
Thank you again though, will keep monitoring and updating
Water change wise I have done over 100% in the past week. Everything else seems fine, 7 hammers, 3 blastos, 5 rics, 7 morphs, 5 torches, 2 bubbles and 3 other elegances, none seem to have any issues at all.
What baffles me most is all the elegances were in the same spot, so had the same lighting, flow, parameters etc yet these 2 bailed out? Just a bit confused. They have all been in there for about 6 months. I do think the phosphate was the problem S it was way too high
Thank you again though, will keep monitoring and updating
What are elegance corals and hammers more sensitive to that other corals are not? Perhaps that line of thinking may steer you in the right direction?
Other ideas: heat? salinity? Some sort of malfunction there?
but again, 7 hammers, 1 struggling.
Talking to Ads might have an idea, GFO can cause iron to spike which hammers hate. So potentially Po4 issues caused the elegance to bail and the GFO to fix it has caused the hammer.
I do think it comes from my parameters being swung quickly due to my dosing problem, I may have reacted too quickly to get them back in line and the sudden swing is causing it. Everything honestly looks as good as it ever has. So at the moment I am just sitting tight and letting it run its course
Talking to Ads might have an idea, GFO can cause iron to spike which hammers hate. So potentially Po4 issues caused the elegance to bail and the GFO to fix it has caused the hammer.
I do think it comes from my parameters being swung quickly due to my dosing problem, I may have reacted too quickly to get them back in line and the sudden swing is causing it. Everything honestly looks as good as it ever has. So at the moment I am just sitting tight and letting it run its course
Sounds like something you might just need to ride out and cut your losses 
from memory I think I did lose a hammer once when I first started gfo, I can't say if it caused the hammer to die though. I'm not sure if it bailed but the polyps were just gone one day. This is before I had any leather corals.
from memory I think I did lose a hammer once when I first started gfo, I can't say if it caused the hammer to die though. I'm not sure if it bailed but the polyps were just gone one day. This is before I had any leather corals.ok so hammer has not released any other heads as of yet. Everything else is looking fine including the other cats.
Next headache is my chiller has been repaired finally, meant to be very warm on Saturday so going to try and get there tonight or tomorrow if I can to collect it and have it back online for the weekend
Next headache is my chiller has been repaired finally, meant to be very warm on Saturday so going to try and get there tonight or tomorrow if I can to collect it and have it back online for the weekend
I learnt new things today!! @Scienceman (he's on Masa too) told me his corals (an elegance) had been releasing from its rock and a fish began picking at it so he superglued the rockslide flesh back down to the rock which stopped it from getting worse. He had to do it a few times, but the coral is in great shape and he didn't lose it.
very interesting!
Don't sell up just yet Ant - I know its upsetting but you've worked too hard to get to this point & things will work out in the end.
I've had a quick look at your TJ & its looking squeaky clean - I'm thinking its either water, lighting or temp.
If you have been using any additives since you did that last major water change last week, do another one, ensuring the water is preheated to the correct temp - you can curse my name the entire time if it makes you feel any better. Then leave the tank to settle for a couple of weeks, no hands in the tank, NO ADDITIVES, no nothing. Give your equipment, any plumbing a bit of a scrub to remove any algae build up just before you do the water change as well - especially the skimmer. I use a toothbrush (if one of my family gets on my bad side.. ;))
What temp is it running at, how do you monitor the temp & what kind of fluctuations are you seeing at the mo?
How long is your lighting period and what settings do you have your Illumagic on?
Do you have anything in the sump that is rusting, like a hose clamp?
I've had a quick look at your TJ & its looking squeaky clean - I'm thinking its either water, lighting or temp.
If you have been using any additives since you did that last major water change last week, do another one, ensuring the water is preheated to the correct temp - you can curse my name the entire time if it makes you feel any better. Then leave the tank to settle for a couple of weeks, no hands in the tank, NO ADDITIVES, no nothing. Give your equipment, any plumbing a bit of a scrub to remove any algae build up just before you do the water change as well - especially the skimmer. I use a toothbrush (if one of my family gets on my bad side.. ;))
What temp is it running at, how do you monitor the temp & what kind of fluctuations are you seeing at the mo?
How long is your lighting period and what settings do you have your Illumagic on?
Do you have anything in the sump that is rusting, like a hose clamp?
:)
Temp is set at 25 with chiller at 27. Running schego heater and thermostat.
I have been slowly adding alk as it is very low but only about a tenth of what I should be as I do not want to cause more issues.
I have to keep putting my hands in the tank to pull all the dead corals out :(
At the moment I am seriously considering converting this into a nice planted FW tank. I wanted a tank I can just enjoy, I have barely enjoyed this in 8 months, just been constant headaches :(
Temp is set at 25 with chiller at 27. Running schego heater and thermostat.
I have been slowly adding alk as it is very low but only about a tenth of what I should be as I do not want to cause more issues.
I have to keep putting my hands in the tank to pull all the dead corals out :(
At the moment I am seriously considering converting this into a nice planted FW tank. I wanted a tank I can just enjoy, I have barely enjoyed this in 8 months, just been constant headaches :(
How frustrating! Can understand how you're feeling. So much preparation, money and care you've put in - I'm sorry it hasn't translated into a happy tank :(
Is there anyone nearby to you that can hold your LPS for you until you have made up your mind? That might be less depressing than watching them all go one by one. It's hard to know if they are bailing because of a past event or something on going.
What was your lighting period?
Even though its tougher to collect really nice ones, I personally prefer soft corals for ease of keeping - they are much more forgiving and I've had periods in my life where the tank needs to be at the bottom of the priority list so it has copped some fair neglect just fine, although I keep my fish numbers to a minimum & barely need to feed them so that makes things easier. Some of the softies do get enormous & eventually you have to do some major chopping, but thats generally the only stress in your life. Things like green & pink fluffy morphs look really effective as they get huge & multiply so need a lot of space. Something to think about at least.
What was your lighting period?
Even though its tougher to collect really nice ones, I personally prefer soft corals for ease of keeping - they are much more forgiving and I've had periods in my life where the tank needs to be at the bottom of the priority list so it has copped some fair neglect just fine, although I keep my fish numbers to a minimum & barely need to feed them so that makes things easier. Some of the softies do get enormous & eventually you have to do some major chopping, but thats generally the only stress in your life. Things like green & pink fluffy morphs look really effective as they get huge & multiply so need a lot of space. Something to think about at least.
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